Reid bill would cost $849B, expand coverage to 31 million people, aide says
By Lori Montgomery, Washington Post Staff Writer --- Wednesday, November 18, 2009
Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid has assembled a compromise health package that would expand coverage to more than 31 million Americans at a cost of $849 billion over the next decade, a senior leadership aide said late Wednesday.
The cost of the package would be more than made up for by cuts in future Medicare spending and an array of new taxes, the aide said, reducing projected budget deficits by $127 billion no later than 2019 -- the biggest cost savings of any health care package so far assembled by congressional Democrats. The measure would also save the government money in the long term, the aide said, cutting projected deficits by as much as $650 billion between 2019 and 2029.
The aide did not release a formal cost estimate from the Congressional Budget Office, saying Reid was still awaiting a final report. But, he said, Reid has "received very good news from CBO confirming that we have produced a fiscally responsible bill that reduces the deficit, extends coverage to millions of Americans and meets the President's cost test."
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216 comments:
1 – 200 of 216 Newer› Newest»I wish we could make the cons pay for it all somehow. After all the money they pocketed with the financial crises and the Iraq war they need to pay a penance.
How very nieve of you.
Sorry Casey, what I am reading now about the financial crises, CDOs, derivatives,lack of regulation, etc. Do you understand the damage that lack of regulation in derivatives caused?
Look around.
"Do you understand the damage that lack of regulation in derivatives caused?"
-Raygun
You mean like the regulation the conservatives tried to put on sub prime lending?
"After all the money they pocketed with the financial crises..."
-Raygun
Why do you think conservatives made more money from the crash than liberals did? Or are you just making up stuff and running around proclaiming them as facts?
BB,the book made the same point as I did to you a long time ago. I asked you, How could the USAs poor cause a near global financial system collapse.
The book states that the most all those Fanny Mae etc loans amounted to was 300 billion. Versus 10's of trillions of dollars of lost equity in securities.
BB, the cause of the collapse was derivatives. How do I explain it? Worst case, derivatives (real story) 1.3 trillion dollars of liabilities backed up by 3-4 billion in real assets. Sound familiar?
A Good Health Care Reform Bill From The Senate
I see you think the last one was crap. This one must be crap+
"BB, the cause of the collapse was derivatives. How do I explain it? Worst case, derivatives (real story) 1.3 trillion dollars of liabilities backed up by 3-4 billion in real assets. Sound familiar?"
-Raygun
Perhaps you could elaborate on that! What were the assets?
"The industry accounted for about $330 billion, or 9%, of U.S. mortgages in 2003"
-USATODAY
Subprime lending has increased alot since 2003. So I can only guess what percent of mortgages are subprime today? 12% or more?
"Perhaps you could elaborate on that! What were the assets?"
--
Who cares what the assets were. The assets relative to the risk was like 500 to 1. JFC, I am from Mars...
JFC BB, words. Subprime et al.
The point is, the fking banks were allowed to create derivatives. Do you understand, derivatives are whatever the banks want to make up.
And what amazes me, is I understand derivatives now.
"Who cares what the assets were. The assets relative to the risk was like 500 to 1. JFC, I am from Mars..."
-Raygun
Your right and I agree with you! But I think you should allow banks to make those kinds of risks if they choose. Dont bail them out when the shit hits the fan!
Have you checked out what Dave Ramsey is teaching yet?
"Dont bail them out when the shit hits the fan!"
--
I get it BB, the book talks about it. I understand and so does the book. This time its more complicated.
But I do believe I do understand derivatives after reading the new book.
Hey CJP, look what on Reid's website. All 2000+ pages of the health care bill.
http://reid.senate.gov/
I applaud him for releasing it. Why don't you read it and tell me what makes it so good that you libs follow blindly.
http://democrats.senate.gov/reform/patient-protection-affordable-care-act.pdf
"Have you checked out what Dave Ramsey is teaching yet? "
--
No, I skimmed your stuff. I have been doing most of it, common sense, but I am not a multi millionaire.
Skipping kids helps in my book.
Do you understand the damage that lack of regulation in derivatives caused?
I understand that the government intervention by pressuring banks to make loans to people that had no business buying homes had a big hand in this. The standards had to be lowered for this to happen.
Funny thing is, they didn't do these people any favors in the long run. Credit ended up runined, and people lost homes, and it killed our economy.
Hate to have to tell you RayGun, but your beloved government under Clinton & Bush---yes, Clinton---had their hands in all of this with their stupid requirements that more loans be made available to low income people. Greed played a part too, but the government that knows NOTHING about ANYTHING had to get involved. And Still Barney Frank says that the guidelines need to be relaxed---like enough damage hasn't been done already! He should be strung up!
RayGun--It is nice that you are reading a book on this. Tell me which one. I might like to check it out.
Casey, you are good!
Casey:
"The Looting of America", Les Leapold.
Please tell me if derivatives are hard to understand after his explanation. I totally understand them now.
"No, I skimmed your stuff. I have been doing most of it, common sense, but I am not a multi millionaire. "
-Raygun
Isnt if funny how most of it is common sense but most people still dont follow that advice?
"After all the money they pocketed with the financial crises..."
-Raygun
Why do you think conservatives made more money from the crash than liberals did? Or are you just making up stuff and running around proclaiming them as facts?
Its all relative BB...
My suggestion is spend your money on education. Once you have the badge, you own it forever...
RayGun: I will read that one. Now you have to promise me that you will try Culture of Corruption---deal?
JC Case, It's Michelle Malkin.
Do you know who her husband is?
Have you ever seen the movie "Primary Colors"? Fantastic movie, that might explain lots...
"Its all relative BB...
My suggestion is spend your money on education. Once you have the badge, you own it forever..."
-Raygun
I already have, work experience is equally valuable!
"After all the money they pocketed with the financial crises..."
-Raygun
Why do you think conservatives made more money from the crash than liberals did? Or are you just making up stuff and running around proclaiming them as facts?
"After all the money they pocketed with the financial crises..."
-Raygun"
-
JC BB, deregulation, lax regulation.
RayGun: JC Case, It's Michelle Malkin.
Do you know who her husband is?
What difference does it make who her husband is? Like I said, if only 10% of it is true---we got problems. Give it a look.
Also, I didn't read a book on the housing bust. I lived it. I am a residential mortgage underwriter, and believe me, we were forced to approve loans that just didn't make any sense. If you were any good, you saw this coming, and if you were any good, you saw what the government was doing! I saw this housing bust 3 years before it happened and it wasn't all "subprime loans" It was also FannieMae and Freddie Mac. Normal conventional loans
"Do you know who her husband is? "
JC, Casey, Malkin, ..., "Primary Colors". Watch the movie. Get back to me on what I am talking about.
Plz watch the movie.
RayGun: Michelle Malkin won the Council on Governmental Ethics Law Award. She has made a whole career of investigating and exposing abuse and corruption on both sides of the governmental parties. Is there a problem with that? I think that her credentials are probably alot better than yours or mine!
RayGun: I will watch the movie and let you know what I think, k?
"RayGun: I will watch the movie and let you know what I think, k?"
--
JC Case, ok, but.. Malkin and Carvell... I dont think you will get the irony...
Hint (John Travolta in the movie is Clinton)
you're alright RayGun. I will watch the movie. Now you have to read the book. You get one book and a movie from me, and you only have to read that one book.
"I wish we could make the cons pay for it all somehow. After all the money they pocketed with the financial crises..."
-Raygun
JC BB, deregulation, lax regulation."
-Raygun
Why do you think conservatives made more money from the crash than liberals did? Or are you just making up stuff and running around proclaiming them as facts?
How does that ONLY apply to conservatives?
RayGun said...
"Do you know who her husband is? "
RayGun, Michelle Malkin is married to Jesse Malkin. So far I can't find anything negative about him. He is a Rhodes Scholar, and used to be a newspaper editor, but I think that he is a "stay at home" father now. Where does Carvell come into this picture?
Let me know when you read her book.
OOps, I am an idiot. I was thinking of Mary Matalin, not Michelle Malkin. As you can see, I don't follow con bloviators very much.
The movie is still excellent, and to me really explains why Hillary let Bill get away with what he did. And its only presumed it is the Clinton's in the movie, and only loosely based.
okay. I thought you might have been thinking of someone else. Personally I think Carvell is annoying!
My daughter is picking up the movie this afternoon. She already saw it and says that it is pretty good.
So...when are you gonna go to the local library and pick up that book?
Geez I only buy books. I have to buy it? It better come in paperback. And if I find a bunch of lies right off the bat I don't have to finish it.
Are you going to read "The Looting of America"?
Casey, how do con women reconcile the fact that their party wants to tell women what to do with their own bodies? If you're a woman con, you have to be religious?
"Casey, how do con women reconcile the fact that their party wants to tell women what to do with their own bodies? If you're a woman con, you have to be religious?"
-Raygun
How do you figure conservatives are telling women what to do with their own bodies?
Uhhh, abortion.
Also cons like to tell others they can't die with dignity, or even die if they want to.
What else do cons like to tell the unwashed masses to do? Hmm, no drugs, is a another.
Seems to me, you're not allowed to die in the con world, unless you can't afford to live.
Some business rule?
Comon BB, let freedom ring.
RayGun said...
Casey, how do con women reconcile the fact that their party wants to tell women what to do with their own bodies? If you're a woman con, you have to be religious?
Here's what you miss.
Libs are pro-abortion and I'm ok with that. Some might be surprised that it is a non-issue to me. I don't know if this makes me more or less moral. Neither for it or against it. I just don't care. (Libs are gonna love this next line and I apologize if anyone is offended.)To me it's like a boob job or a male enhancement. There's alot of independent people who think of it as a boob job or male enhancement. What libs don't understand is just because I'm not against abortion doesn't mean I want to pay for it. I don't want to pay for a boob job or a male enhancement. There's alot of people out there who don't want to pay for a boob job or a male enhancement. Because of this libs make us turn from "for it" to "against it".
As far as I'm concerned you can have all the abortions you want as long as I don't have to pay for them. The second you make me pay for it (boob jobs or male enhancement)then I'm anti. Democrats keep pushing us away.
RayGun not all non-democrats are bible thumpers that are anti-abortion.
Casey, how do con women reconcile the fact that their party wants to tell women what to do with their own bodies? If you're a woman con, you have to be religious?
Okay. You are (again) presuming that I am a "con". I am a Libertarian, and do NOT want to be associated with either Dems or Republicans. I am not for the government telling us what we can and can't do on every aspect of our lives.
I do not want to pay for people's abortions, either. As far as I am concerned, these days there are no good reasons for abortion. There is birth control and the morning after pill and you have to be a MORON to get pregnant if you don't want to.
Now, RayGun our deal was that you had to read the book going in with the assumption that only 10% of what you read is true (I believe that the truth percentage is far higher) but for you---just 10%.
I suggest the library because I don't want you to have to buy something that you would be resentful or embarrassed to buy (it is, afterall Michelle Malkin and you guys all hate her)
I watched Primary Colors last night and it was good. I think that the treatment of Bill was a bit rough, but it was entertaining.
BUT THIS IS WHAT I AM TALKING ABOUT. The corruption is all over the place in both parties. READ THE BOOK. You will see what I am talking about and why I am sick of it. I no longer trust either party, and believe that we have to throw them all out and start over.
You guys all talk about Obama and this Administration as if they were Gods sent down from Heaven, sent to save us all. This book will show you that they are not. (sorry)They are just a continuence of the same shit that has been going on for far too long---only worse because now we are in REAL trouble and we deserve better than this!
Obama preaches change. It's the same crap democrats do. Tax anything that moves. No change in that.
HOTR--Oh I think that we know the kind of "change" that Obama was talking about, don't we?
March towards socialism Casey.
Casey and HOTE, I hope Beck et al, keeps talking and has a sedition charge thrown at him. I would advise stay away from the big talkers, that talk lies, trying to instigate, for the purpose of ratings.
RG you hate the truth don't you? We're on to you.
What truth HOTB, you just talk in circles.
Too bad for the libs that FOX has all the ratings. It goes to show you that we want the news and not the editorials all the lib stations give. RG, you must hate that FOX is on top. lol
I dislike Faux for what they have done to the country. I blame them for instigating the rubes.
It's funny how you hate them so much. You probably can't sleep. Seeing Chris Mathews (lib media god) at the bottom of the pack is too funny.
I love FoxNews Beck and Stossel are fine examples of Libertarians. I want real freedom for all.
"I want real freedom for all. "
--
Then how about the God loving cons quit telling us what to do??
Casey, great writing or what?
http://opinionator.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/11/19/western-men-are-doomed/
You tell me that the "cons" are telling you what to do, when all of the while you are advocating bigger government. I don't think that you know for sure what it is that you want.
I don't want to tell you how to live your life. That is your business. In turn, I don't want you, or anyone else telling me how to run mine.
"I don't want you, or anyone else telling me how to run mine."
--
Then please, quit voting for cons.
"How do you figure conservatives are telling women what to do with their own bodies?"
-Brandon
"Uhhh, abortion."
-Raygun
You forget there are two other people involved in an abortion besides the mother. How would you feel if your wife aborted your perfectly healthy child because she felt like doing so without your consent?
At what point do you think women should no longer be able to have an abortion or do you think they should be able to abort them at or past their due dates?
Damn BB, I thought you were dead. Good to see you still alive.
Regarding abortion, I think the courts decided that a viable fetus a mother can not abort. That is, once it can live without it's mother, then It legally can not be aborted. For now I can go along with the courts, for whatever its worth.
"Regarding abortion, I think the courts decided that a viable fetus a mother can not abort. That is, once it can live without it's mother, then It legally can not be aborted. For now I can go along with the courts, for whatever its worth."
-Raygun
Doesn't that make you a hypocrite?
On one hand your bashing conservatives for, in your words, telling women what to do with their bodies and on the other hand you're supporting the governments decision Not to allow women to abort some babies!
"I wish we could make the cons pay for it all somehow. After all the money they pocketed with the financial crises..."
-Raygun
JC BB, deregulation, lax regulation."
-Raygun
Why do you think conservatives made more money from the crash than liberals did? Or are you just making up stuff and running around proclaiming them as facts?
How does that ONLY apply to conservatives?
Maybe you should look in the mirror before bashing anyone else!
"Not to allow women to abort some babies!"
--
Whatever BB, I suppose we have to draw the line somewhere. As long as the baby does not suffer in dieing I really don't have any problem with how late they die. Nature does it all the time (Your God). Nature aborts nearly 30 percent of all pregnancies.
BB, I have killed a lot of animals, Kodiak Brown Bears, Moose, Caribou, Black Bears, and lots more. I don't think humans are all that special. We are not that much different than animals. We are all born, we are all afraid to die, and we all die. I have watched a lot of animals die, and they are just afraid of dieing as we are. But once your dead, it is the same as it was before you were born. You survived that period, didn't you? :-)
"Why do you think conservatives made more money from the crash than liberals did? "
--
Comon BB, it's common knowledge that generally the libs are the elitist intellectuals, who aren't usually that rich, and the cons are the money loving money grubbers. And who thinks regulations are necessary, and who thinks all regulations are evil? Warren Buffet is the only money grubber I know of even close to being considered a liberal.
"Whatever BB, I suppose we have to draw the line somewhere. As long as the baby does not suffer in dieing I really don't have any problem with how late they die. Nature does it all the time (Your God). Nature aborts nearly 30 percent of all pregnancies."
-Raygun
I just find it funny how passionate you are about bashing conservatives when you have a lot in common with them. We just have slightly different views on when a child should be given a shot at life. Who are you to take that chance away from someone?
"Comon BB, it's common knowledge that generally the libs are the elitist intellectuals, who aren't usually that rich, and the cons are the money loving money grubbers. And who thinks regulations are necessary, and who thinks all regulations are evil? Warren Buffet is the only money grubber I know of even close to being considered a liberal"
-Raygun
I think its common knowledge that conservatives tend to conserve their money and accumulate wealth while liberals are to dumb to save anything for retirement and rely on stealing money from conservatives to pay for their short comings!
"Who are you to take that chance away from someone? "
--
I don't think life is that big of deal. And billions of humans don't have a very good life. And I don't like ruining the entire life of a mother through extreme poverty. Mothers know, in nature also, when conditions are not conducive to a good life. And in nature they either won't breed, or will kill their young.
"stealing money from conservatives to pay for their short comings!"
--
I think cons like telling others what to do, then don't want to take any responsibility for the result.
"I don't think life is that big of deal. And billions of humans don't have a very good life. And I don't like ruining the entire life of a mother through extreme poverty."
-Raygun
Then why should murder be illegal?
Why not put a child up for adoption, I am sure a conservative family somewhere will adopt your liberal children and give them a loving home!
"I think cons like telling others what to do, then don't want to take any responsibility for the result"
-Raygun
Examples?
"adopt your liberal children and give them a loving home!"
--
BS. Especially when it's not the right color or not very pretty or has some kind of problem.
Examples?
--
Abortions, right to die, drugs and prison, etc
"BS. Especially when it's not the right color or not very pretty or has some kind of problem."
-Raygun
You mean like Plains kid? It seems they love their children very much. You would just rather kill them, wouldn't you?
"Abortions, right to die, drugs and prison, etc"
-Raygun
I thought we were talking fiscally?
Abortions: You also want to control by telling women they cant abort some children
Right to die: I am fine with certain ill people given this choice but when I comes down to it. You cant keep people from killing themselves!
Drugs: Conservatives only want drugs kept away from our children and its very difficult to keep legal substances away from kids. Look at alcohol.
Prisons: Your going to have to elaborate on why you chose this one. Do you not believe in putting people in jail.
If liberals are OK with abortions then why dont more of them support the death penalty? More hypocrites?
Whos Plains kids? Oh Palin. I don't want to kill her kid, but don't want tell a mother she can't have an abortion. Plain has a pretty special life also, shes not really that ordinary, and has daughters et al to take care of her kids. What about a poor black woman? How's she going to take care of a kid like that? While working a real job?
"Do you not believe in putting people in jail."
Not for drugs, and I'm guessing 50 percent are in there for drugs.
"why dont more of them support the death penalty? More hypocrites?"
DD I personally don't have a problem with the death penalty. As long as they die painlessly, which I don't believe they actually do. Do you know how many death row convicts have been found totally innocent?
"How's she going to take care of a kid like that? While working a real job"
-Raygun
You and I both know their are already more than enough government programs in place to take care of that kid for the rest of its life!
"DD I personally don't have a problem with the death penalty. As long as they die painlessly, which I don't believe they actually do. Do you know how many death row convicts have been found totally innocent?"
-Raygun
No, but I do know that their are three shots given to convicts on death row. One makes them go to sleep the other stops the heart and the last one is kind of like drain-O!
"to take care of that kid for the rest of its life!"
--
Right, and a great life it will be.
"Do you not believe in putting people in jail."
-Brandon
Not for drugs, and I'm guessing 50 percent are in there for drugs.
-Raygun
Thats one more mistake I made, their maybe 50% in jail for drugs but not in prison!
How do you feel about people going to prison for tax crimes?
"Right, and a great life it will be"
-Raygun
There you go again, not looking at the big picture! The person your talking about, poor black woman, is already living a shitty life and it was her choice to get pregnant in her current situation.
"No, but I do know that their are three shots given to convicts on death row."
--
I heard many suspect it could be very painful. Some states have suspended it until further investigation. Docs don't want to get involved because of the hypocratic oath.
"Thats one more mistake I made,"
--
How long were you in jail for drugs?
"How long were you in jail for drugs"
-Raygun
I said jail instead of prison, that was my mistake. LOL
"I heard many suspect it could be very painful. Some states have suspended it until further investigation. Docs don't want to get involved because of the hypocratic oath."
-Raygun
I dont see it any different than going in for surgery without waking up.
"I dont see it any different than going in for surgery without waking up. "
--
Totally agree, but apparently that's not what it's like. They really don't know what they are doing, as real doctors are not involved.
http://www.criminalsearches.com/images/stats/category/category-chart.gif
"They really don't know what they are doing, as real doctors are not involved."
-Raygun
Maybe they should just bring in some doctors from other countries who havent taken the oath.
How do you feel about people going to prison for tax crimes?
"How do you feel about people going to prison for tax crimes? "
--
We'll we need some incentives to pay taxes. We can't build roads for example and just let those that feel like paying taxes (no one) pay them.
If you want to suggest a pay as you go deal, its certainly fine with me. I drive very little, and use most services very minimally compared to others. How about everyone paying for their own kids school, and once their out they're done paying? Looks like 5200 is average cost for each and every year for 12 years per kid. How will you kid loving cons afford that?
Why do you think Boeing is building in S.C. in stead of Washington?
"If you want to suggest a pay as you go deal, its certainly fine with me. I drive very little, and use most services very minimally compared to others. How about everyone paying for their own kids school, and once their out they're done paying? Looks like 5200 is average cost for each and every year for 12 years per kid. How will you kid loving cons afford that?"
-Raygun
Remember, conservatives wouldnt have any problem with that, it the liberals who dont have any money that couldnt afford it. As for you comment on the roads, you would be paying for it because almost everything you buy is trucked across the country.
Fair Tax!
I saw that with Boeing. Maybe union troubles? Seems like they go on strike every other year out here.
Fair Tax
Everyone would pay almost the same percentage, food would be exempt.
Nobody goes to jail for not paying taxes, since you pay at the register.
No more IRS
No more paper work to file and no more refund checks to be issued.
Added concerns of Americans over where their tax dollars are spent, since everyone would know of any tax increases!
The US continues to maintain its position as the world's leading jailer, in both actual numbers and per capita.
http://stopthedrugwar.org/chronicle/539/US_prisoners_all_time_high_2.3_million
"I saw that with Boeing. Maybe union troubles? Seems like they go on strike every other year out here."
-Raygun
The unions and high taxes. Now you can thank the unions and our state government for higher unemployment rates. Thats more of our tax dollars going to bail those people out who voted the unions in. Dont forget the loss of tax revenues and will be made up somewhere else!
"And black men continue to be overrepresented in the prison figures. Blacks make up about 13% of the US population, but 35.5% of all prisoners, BJS reported. Nearly one out of 20 (4.6%) of black males were behind bars, a rate more than double that of Hispanic men (1.7%) and more than six times that of white men (0.7%)."
-Your article
What do you think of this piece of information?
"Dont forget the loss of tax revenues and will be made up somewhere else! "
--
We'll just tax the evil empire MicroSoft more. All my neighbors earn way to much that work at MS. They all drive very expensive cars, have one parent working and lots of kids.
"Blacks make up about 13% of the US population, but 35.5% of all prisoners"
--
I saw that. They have to take a lot of the blame themselves. Obama proved you can get ahead and be black.
"We'll just tax the evil empire MicroSoft more. All my neighbors earn way to much that work at MS. They all drive very expensive cars, have one parent working and lots of kids."
-Raygun
Who are you to say they earn to much and why do you think Microsoft cant shut down their operation here in Washington and move to another state?
"I saw that. They have to take a lot of the blame themselves. Obama proved you can get ahead and be black."
-Raygun
I think its funny how alot of people would call you a racist for mentioning this point or that the judges are racist and that is the reason for these numbers.
"Who are you to say they earn to much"
--
We have to tax something. The poor just don't have that much money to tax.
How can what I said be considered racist. Pretty sure even Bill Cosby pretty much said the same thing.
"Forty years ago, a government report on the state of the black family in America warned that almost one out of four black children were born to unmarried mothers. Recent figures suggest that now, almost 70 percent of black children are born out of wedlock."
source:
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=4865449
I saw this stat on "Black in America".
"How can what I said be considered racist. Pretty sure even Bill Cosby pretty much said the same thing."
-Raygun
I am not calling you a racist, I am saying Facts like these are dismissed my alot of people because of race issues.
"We have to tax something. The poor just don't have that much money to tax."
-Raygun
So lets tax all individuals the same and cut taxes for companies! More jobs!
Im sure single parents are a major reason for any kids problems. My neighbors kids are incredibly well behaved, and they all have stay at home moms.
"Despite our economy being mired in the deepest recession since the 1930s, people in the top 1% continue to own as much wealth as those in the bottom 90%"
http://faireconomy.org/issues/growing_divide?gclid=CJm2zcyfnZ4CFQgtawodThFGmg
--
Comon BB, even a con can see that the rich can afford to pay a little more. Especially since their wealth is coming from the labor of those working for them.
RG said...
We have to tax something.
Great plan. That's the way to fix it.
BB regarding the 25 percent in prisons for drug related crimes, what the figures fail to take into account are the people who's robberies and murders are drug related but are still grouped under other categories of crime. We could possibly reduce our prison population by much more than 25 percent if we decriminalized drugs.
See once again, the progressive ideals versus the con ideals come in to play. Anyone can see the war on drugs is not working so lets try something different (progressive), versus drugs are bad, we need to be tough on crime, build more prisons (con).
See once again, the progressive ideals versus the con ideals come in to play. Anyone can see the war on drugs is not working so lets try something different (progressive), versus drugs are bad, we need to be tough on crime, build more prisons (con).
RG, I agree with you. Some of the drug laws are insane.
HOTR, seems like Obama is on the right track with marijuana at least. I read that the medical pot stores are doing great, once Obama promised the feds will not prosecute, a departure from w.
If we taxed all drugs the revenues would be astounding. The government would have the revenue, not the criminals, such as the Afghan Taliban and their heroin trade.
I'm not really into the make drugs legal kick. I've seen alot of friends start smoking pot and go on to heavier drugs that destroyed their families.
I just think some drug laws destroy poor families. The ripple effect of taking a father away from his family for so many years because he had 3 or 4 grams of coke of devastating.
"years because he had 3 or 4 grams of coke of devastating."
--
Exactly. And where did he get the money for 3-4 grams of coke in the first place?
All I am saying is we need to try something different, than what we are doing today with regards to drug laws.
Marijuana should certainly be legalized. Many people smoke pot who do not go on to heavier drugs. Marijuana apparently has medical benefits. People who smoke pot should not be subject to criminal penalties.
I'm not sure about coke. Maybe coke should be legalized, too. I don't know enough about its effects, but coke is a very popular item today.
Certainly drugs which are totally destructive -- crack, crystal meth, heroin -- should not be legalized.
But marijuana is probably no more harmful than cigarettes or alcohol. If marijuana were legalized and taxed, that would solve many current problems -- take a lot of people out of jail, increase tax revenues and help balance budgets.
I agree mostly CJP, but the opiate class of drugs, heroin, cocaine, decriminalization at least, should be looked at. People are going to use it anyway. Tax it and use some of that revenue for treatment. There are lots of functioning addicts, as well as there are now functioning alcoholics, so some can get away with using it and some can't.
We must face the fact that the current war on drugs is a failure. We need to study alternatives.
The cons other favorite war, the war on terror, is mainly paid for by oil and Aghani heroin.
Comon cons, eliminate the war on drugs, the war on terror will mostly go away. We promise, we'll find you another war to rally behind. :-) (my personal favorite would be a war on religion, but...)
"Comon cons, eliminate the war on drugs, the war on terror will mostly go away. We promise, we'll find you another war to rally behind. :-) (my personal favorite would be a war on religion, but...)"
CutandpasteGun never ceases to amaze.
Anyway, we all know that many drug addicts steal and many can be dangerous. Legalizing would just make things worse because more people will try and get hooked since it's not hidden in society. If you mainstream drugs then the obvious consequence is that more and more people will use. Heavy crime will obviously follow.
"eliminate the war on drugs, the war on terror will mostly go away"
RG really thinks that the "war on terror" is about drugs.
No wonder you dems don't want military tribunals.
See, you guys are great. I can sit here and program and take small breaks to respond to con diatribes.
"Heavy crime will obviously follow. "
Why will heavy crime follow HOTR? Isn't there heavy crime here now, selling drugs, and buying drugs with stolen money? Maybe your right, as all those Hollywood types doing those drugs now, are well known for their heavy crime sprees. On screen for sure.
"Why will heavy crime follow HOTR? Isn't there heavy crime here now, selling drugs, and buying drugs with stolen money?"
Do you think more people will use RG?
"Maybe your right, as all those Hollywood types doing those drugs now, are well known for their heavy crime sprees. On screen for sure."
You don't think this happens now in heavy drug areas RG? Or do you really think that's only the movies?
"You don't think this happens now in heavy drug areas RG?"
--
JC, yes it happens now, because its illegal. There's big money involved. Relatively easy money. If the opiates were legal the crime would mostly go away. My theory anyway. I say lets just try it.
Lots of creative people use drugs on a daily basis. People will do drugs no matter how much you cons tell them not to. Think about prohibition. A complete failure.
Do you think more people will use?
"I say lets just try it."
--
And not across the US. Let's just not make it a Federal crime. Let the states decide.
"Do you think more people will use? "
--
Seems like more would use. Did less use alcohol during prohibition?
Let me explain to you what a serious drug habit does to a person. Not all but to many people it becomes their only reason in life. They will spend all they have, sell what's left then commit crimes to get the money to buy more. If their are more people using then there can only be one outcome. How does making it legal help a drug addict not commit crimes. It will create more addicts. Simple.
I didn't even mention the effects of poor minority areas.
HOTR, I am not sure what would happen if the Feds quite prosecuting opiate crimes. Let the states figure out what works an what doesn't. Three fourths of the states would be too cowardly to even try.
Just like concealed weapons. Most states said it was insanity to let people carry concealed weapons. Now most states allow it, and crime is way down. Why is crime down. Criminals don't like getting shot?
Comon HOTR, let the states figure what works best. We know cons know best about everything, but lets try it anyway. Let's let freedom ring.
Only a liberal can rationalize positive reasons for creating more drug addicts. Somehow you believe that more addicts will create less crime because the drugs will now be "legal".
Now most states allow it, and crime is way down." RG
Which states? Please, I'm interested in looking up this information.
Now most states allow it, and crime is way down.
Please RG. I want to see what state has lowered crime with making drugs legal.
I said:
"Just like concealed weapons. Most states said it was insanity to let people carry concealed weapons. Now most states allow it, and crime is way down. Why is crime down. Criminals don't like getting shot?"
http://www.moccw.org/map.html
I live in WA, which has some of the most lenient concealed carry, and right to protect yourself laws in the nation.
Sorry RG. I forget that libs change the way subject when the say dumb statements like:
"JC, yes it happens now, because its illegal. There's big money involved. Relatively easy money. If the opiates were legal the crime would mostly go away. My theory anyway. I say lets just try it." RG
how easy it is for you to compare a drug habit to carrying a gun. lol
I live in WA, which has some of the most lenient concealed carry, and right to protect yourself laws in the nation.
Are drugs legal in your state?
"how easy it is for you to compare a drug habit to carrying a gun. lol "
--
Yes all the pundits said with concealed carry it would be the wild west again. Everyone would be shooting everyone. Traffic altercations would erupt into gunfire. On and on. Just like your saying now about legalizing drugs. The worst didn't happen with concealed carry, I doubt the worst would happen with legalized drugs. They were wrong about concealed carry causing all kinds of problems, they are probably wrong about relaxing drug laws and crime also. To find the real result on lax drug laws, let's ask so more cons what they think, as we know cons are wrong about most things :-)
Forget it. You cons are like hedgehogs...
I live in WA, which has some of the most lenient concealed carry, and right to protect yourself laws in the nation. RG
Why are you democrat? Dems hate guns.
ROTR doesn't listen. RTOR does not know the world is more than black and white.
"Yes all the pundits said with concealed carry it would be the wild west again. Everyone would be shooting everyone. Traffic altercations would erupt into gunfire. On and on."
All the democrat pundits said that. I never heard any republican or conservative say that. So I agree with you:
"They were wrong about concealed carry causing all kinds of problems"
You're right. The democrats are frequently wrong.
You hate it when you get pinned down, don't you? You hate when your answers don't match what you mean. It's very funny. Really.
"They were wrong about concealed carry causing all kinds of problems" RG
Yes...democrats were wrong. They're probably wrong about legalizing drugs too. Thanks RG for clearing that up. lol
Yah, HOTEY, you got me. Dems were wrong about gun control. Cost nothing. Cons were wrong about trickle down, and now we have 6 trillion in debt between w and RayGun. Suppose they are equal in a simple cons view of the world.
Maybe state cons are not as gd dumb as Washington DC cons. Maybe we should let states decide drug laws also, just like states decided concealed carry laws.
Ok cons have been wrong about absolutely everything but one thing.
And besides HOTEY, I have only stated 20 times that I am an independent progressive. But everything in a right wing zealot cons world that is not as extreme right as they are is auto labeled a liberal etc.
Dems are definitely not right about everything either.
"have 6 trillion in debt between w and RayGun" RG
I love how dems blame Obama's inability to stop spending on the republicans. They'll blame the debt created by the health care plan on republicans as well enough though democrats are the only ones voting for it.
This health care bill will give people in America health care, the problem is it will be lacking important factors that will improve the health of America's citizens. In 2006, there was 46 million people in America who didn't have health coverage. I feel that if this health care bill does get passed there may not be 46 million people without health care, but there most likely will be 304,059,724 people without good health care, and that number of people will be paying an arm and a leg in taxes for the health care that they get. We can already see how the health care will work with how well the H1N1 vaccine came out. The plan may say it will work, but when America really needs it, it will fall through.
"I feel that if this health care bill does get passed there may not be 46 million people without health care, but there most likely will be 304,059,724 people without good health care"
Great point concernedstudent!
They were wrong about concealed carry causing all kinds of problems,
You can't compare the 2. The concealed weapon permits are not given out to just anyone. You have to have backgorund checks, and classes and pass a test (in most states)
With legalizing all drugs, what are you going to do to prove "responsible using"?
Have you ever seen the effects of Heroin addiction? Have you ever known a Heroin addict? It isn't pretty. Read "Heroin Diaries" by Nikki Sixx or "Three Dog Nightmare" by Chuck Negron, or David Crosby's book, "Long time Gone"
I have known Heroin Addicts in my lifetime. There ARE NO responsible opiate addicts!
Marijuana is not a big deal, and personally, I think that it should be de-criminalized. But when you talk about Cocaine and heroin, I have to tellyou that you are dead wrong in thinking that it can be controlled!
"ConcernedStudent", following the same thought pattern you and the other cons are propagating, don't you think that a public option for health care, is really a harbinger to communism? Of course with the intermediary step of socialism, which according to cons, since Obamas swearing in, has already happened.
Right Casey, cons have shown they know best about all things.
RayGun said...
Right Casey, cons have shown they know best about all things.
Not all. Just more than democrats.
Drugs shouldn't be a political issue, it should be a moral issue, RG, but then again, you don't think that life is very special, so I can see why you wouldn't care about people that OD or get hopelessly hooked on drugs
Case, drugs alcohol, whats the difference?
I haven't heard about many people getting killed by a drunk other than driving. I have heard drug addicts that killed family and friends to get money for drugs. Anyone who thinks the results of legalizing drugs will drop crime are just unable to think.
"I have heard drug addicts that killed family and friends to get money for drugs."
--
Your a moron HOTR. Legalizing drugs would make, uhh, them really cheap. No need to murder for money to buy drugs, cuz said drugs are cheap. JFC.
WTF about murdering for gd alcohol? Is that happening on a rampant scale?
I really feel I might as well go out back and talk to my fence posts.
Again, I don't know for sure what would happen. Only you cons know the "truth". You're generally Gods best buddies, and he whispers the truth in your ear??? Why else do you guys know so much?
I think that the Netherlands tried this "experiment" and found the the addiction and crime rate skyrocketed. Herion and Cocaine are not even legal there, but the addiction rate for those drugs has gone up since other drugs have been legalized. Google it.
Legalizing drugs such as Heroin will not stop the OD rate, and really RG, these drugs CHANGE people. They are not the people that they once may have been once they start using. The rate for child abuse and neglect go up as well
You know what, RG? I don't want to make decisions for you in your life. I have said that before. You should be allowed to own a gun, smoke some dope, ride around without a seatbealt if you want, but the Dems are the party that want MORE regulation and laws in our lives. Hell, they are all about taking your guns and making sure that you set your thermostat at 65. (Cap & Trade)
Case I don't know what would happen. All I know is the current war on drugs does not work.
Let's let the states experiment with drugs, like California is now with pot. The Feds are no longer going after pot users in Calif, the state is making the calls on what to do about marijuania.
Lets just get the Feds out of it. Let the states try and succeed or fail on their own. And the states may very well fail; legalizing drugs may very well not work out. Lets progress (be progressives) and live and learn.
Comon Case, fk "thermostat at 65. (Cap & Trade)". It's not going to happen any time soon. Hopefully I'll be dead before you're children are affected by global climate change.
I agree that the states should make the call. Wow! We agree on something! :)
One more thought. You can drink frequently and never become an achoholic, but if you use Heroin and Cocaine frequently, you will become addicted at some point.
"I agree that the states should make the call. Wow! We agree on something! :)"
--
And the only reason to let the states make the call, is because the states are all little laboratories, experimenting with the unknown. Let the states get out there and we'll see what really works and what does not. Lets progress. Let's not live like con men in the past. Let's explore the future together, and learn to accept whatever is out there. Let's try the truth for a change :-)
A lot of great writers are alcoholics, a lot of great musicians are heroin addicts etc. Let's just try some new things. Lets not live in the past.
con⋅serv⋅a⋅tive
1. disposed to preserve existing conditions, institutions, etc., or to restore traditional ones, and to limit change.
2. cautiously moderate or purposefully low: a conservative estimate.
3. traditional in style or manner; avoiding novelty or showiness: conservative suit.
I think that you should read the books that I mentioned above. These were 3 very talented musicians; top of their field. Heroin addiction destroyed them. John Lennon was not creating during his Heroin addiction years. There have been very talented musicians that BECAME addicts, but the drug eventually destroyed the creativity.
I believe the the states should make these decisions because I am in favor of a smaller federal government, this is how our founding fathers initially set this up.
I don't know Casey, seems they all really came back also.
I could be wrong.
And who knows what heroin they were getting. Who knows what was really in the heroin.
John Lennon particularly, is one of my favorites.
All I can pin Bono down for is booze, and he and Lennon are pretty much tied.
All I know is some of the best writers of our times, were drug users, including alcohol.
Maybe that's Obamas problem now, once in the white house, he's give all the drugs up???
Casey, Plz try another movie/musical:
"Across the Universe", Sony Pictures.
Very few movies I have seen more than once. "Across the Universe" I have seen maybe 20 times. It's a musical/movie, based on the Beatles music (movie, circa around 2007). Most of "Across the Universe" songs were John Lennon's words, sung by others.
Hard to explain. Probably ahead of its time, relatively speaking.
Bono did a cameo appearance, and probably the best song, "I am the Walrus" in the movie.
Bono understood the Beatles. And John Lennon was the Beatles.
"All I know is some of the best writers of our times, were drug users, including alcohol." RG
Well that's a great reason to legalize drugs RG.
Seriously, these people probably have so much money they didn't need to rob and steal to get money to buy them. What do you suggest the middle class and poor addicts do about getting money?
All I know is some of the best writers of our times, were drug users, including alcohol.
The artist is often a tortured soul. But I have never heard one argue that addictive substances enhance creativity.
I have seen Across the Universe, RG. Good movie. Did you see "I'm Not There" loosely based on Dylan's music? If not, skip it. It sucked---bigtime!
"What do you suggest the middle class and poor addicts do about getting money? "
--
JFC, again HORT, what do "the middle class and poor addicts do about getting money" for alcohol now??? JC alcohol is not that expensive. If they legalized drugs, they would not be very expensive either.
I don't know. I don't have control. (Listening to John Lennon now).
I don't know about you HOTR, but much more of Obama, and I may need some heavy drugs to cope! LOL
Absolutely Case, "Im not there", I thought it was outstanding. Incredible.
Men and women are not that much different. Cate Blanchett, (my honey), played Bob Dylan. Men and women are not that much different. Part of the point of the movie.
Great movie.
Man and animals are not that much different either.
That's what my book is going to be about. Hunting. Killing. We all die. We are not that much different.
I guess that I missed the point of "I'm not there" I love the old Dylan, and maybe my expectations were that it was based more on Dylan. I like Blanchett. She always does a great job. Didn't care for that movie, tho.
I don't hunt, but since I moved to Michigan I do see the need for it. Not into killing. Against the death penalty, too.
wow, everyone loves Kate. Even as a man, even as a woman.
Ok, finishing up Lennon, getting ready for Across the Universe.
Loud.
Across the Universe was one of their best songs. Loved that whole album.
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0445922/
I am watching it on the home big screen tv/stereo, really loud. 21st time.
Case, you watched the movie, correct? It's more than an album.
All the actors in Across the Universe went onto other major movies.
Across the Universe was released in 2007.
John Lennon wrote 9 out of 10 of the songs on that movie/album/musical.
Case, your right."Across the Universe" was a song also.
Case, my favorite song on that movie is "I am the Walrus" by (Lenon) sung by Bono.
Bono is the man, he sums it all up.
Case, why dont we do it it the rain.
why dont we do it in the road.
Across the Universe.
"Across the Universe"
-
"You go to show boy"
Geez Rg. I don't know what to do when we aren't arguing with each other! :)
"BB regarding the 25 percent in prisons for drug related crimes, what the figures fail to take into account are the people who's robberies and murders are drug related but are still grouped under other categories of crime. We could possibly reduce our prison population by much more than 25 percent if we decriminalized drugs."
-Raygun
Those crimes were commited because they couldnt afford drugs, what would change if it were legal?
"Comon BB, even a con can see that the rich can afford to pay a little more. Especially since their wealth is coming from the labor of those working for them."
-Raygun
You sure are dense! Stop and think about your statement. Where is Americas wealthiest wealth at??? Is it sitting in savings accounts waiting to get taxed?
UR funny Case. Across the Universe.
BB, ur such a dud,,
paco,he's a sgagger.
jc BB, ur such dud.
Acrsos the Universe.
RG is being very chill tonight...
Hugh, comon sweet maaami.
I dont know where to begin.
JC
My songs.
I needa a fix.
I ame going down without a gun.
.....
aaaaaaaaaaaa happiesents is a warm gun.mommaaa.
Helter Skelter is a great one!
helter skelter, my favorit.
a joyful noise.
Conx, maybe dont get helter skelter.
Good Nite RG!
"Comon BB, even a con can see that the rich can afford to pay a little more. Especially since their wealth is coming from the labor of those working for them."
-Raygun
You sure are dense! Stop and think about your statement. Where is Americas wealthiest wealth at??? Is it sitting in savings accounts waiting to get taxed?
"Comon BB, even a con can see that the rich can afford to pay a little more. Especially since their wealth is coming from the labor of those working for them."
-Raygun
So what is your answer? Tax them, tax them. tax them? Why not just shut them down, because the "evil rich corporate bosses" dont deserve to be wealthy. How Socialistic is that???
RG, you don't really believe half of this crap that you are saying, do you???
So what is your answer? Tax them, tax them. tax them? "
JC Case, you don't think the rich should pay a little more in taxes than the poor?
Are you calling w and precious RayGun communists because they didn't equalize our system of taxation? And rest of the world are communists because they tax the rich at a higher rate? Wow.
"And rest of the world are communists "
Damn, no wonder cons like a big army so much. Commies everywhere.
The real reason cons like big armies is they like to tell others what to do.
The real reason cons like big armies is they like to tell others what to do.
blah.....blah.....blah......blah
Sounds suspicously like the same thousands of comments left by CutandpasteGun
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