Sunday, November 29, 2009

Iran Is Rapidly Becoming The World's Number One Trouble Spot

A Defiant Iran Details Plan for 10 Enrichment Plants

By DAVID E. SANGER and WILLIAM J. BROAD
Published: November 29, 2009 -- The New York Times

WASHINGTON — Iran angrily refused Sunday to comply with a United Nations demand to cease work on a once-secret nuclear fuel enrichment plant, and escalated the confrontation by declaring it would construct 10 more such plants.

The response to the demand, made in a resolution by the International Atomic Energy Agency, the nuclear regulatory arm of the United Nations, came as Iran’s president, Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, said his cabinet would also order a study of what it would take for Iran to further enrich its existing stockpile of nuclear fuel for use in a medical reactor — rather than rely on Russia or another nation, as agreed to in an earlier tentative deal.

While it is unclear whether Iran has the fuel technology, the declaration appeared intended to convince the West that Iran was prepared to move closer to bomb-grade quality, while stopping short of crossing that threshold.

Even if Iran proceeded with an ambitious plan to build 10 enrichment plants, it is doubtful Iran could execute that plan for years, maybe decades. But the announcement itself was enough to draw immediate condemnation from the White House, which clearly hoped that Iran’s defiant tone would help convince Russia and China that imposing harsh sanctions was justified.

Both countries, historically opposed to sanctions, had voted in favor of the atomic energy agency’s resolution. By refusing to accept that resolution, one senior administration official said, “Ahmadinejad may be doing more to assemble a sanctions coalition than we could do in months of work.”

The White House spokesman, Robert Gibbs, said of Iran’s declaration: “If true, this would be yet another serious violation of Iran’s clear obligations under multiple U.N. Security Council resolutions, and another example of Iran choosing to isolate itself.”

According to Iranian state television, Mr. Ahmadinejad’s cabinet voted to begin construction at five new sites designated for uranium enrichment plants — it did not specify where — and to determine locations for another five in the next few months.

In Europe, diplomats called the Iranian plan for a giant expansion of enrichment closer to a national aspiration than an imminent threat. Iran’s main enrichment facility, at Natanz, began early this decade and today the country has installed fewer than a tenth of the 50,000 centrifuges it is designed to handle. A second, once-secret plant — revealed two months ago — has been under construction for more than three years, and it is still at least a year from completion.

“It’s preposterous,” a diplomat in Vienna who collaborates with the International Atomic Energy Agency said of the plan for the 10 plants. The diplomat, who closely monitors the Iranian nuclear program, added: “It would be way, way more than they need no matter what their nuclear aspirations.” He noted that the United States had just one enrichment plant, in Paducah, Ky.

But the threat did appear to represent Iran’s decision to find a way to strike back politically at the West for the Security Council’s three resolutions demanding that Iran stop all enrichment activity. The international atomic agency’s board built on those Security Council resolutions on Friday, when it demanded that Iran halt work on construction of its second, once-secret enrichment plant. It was the first time the atomic agency had told Iran to halt construction of a plant.

What American and atomic agency officials fear is that the steady drumbeat of defiant declarations from Iran could lead to the one act that would truly touch off a crisis: Iran’s withdrawal from the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty. That would terminate the already limited presence of the West’s atomic inspectors in Iran. North Korea took that step in early 2003, and soon produced the fuel for eight or more nuclear weapons; it has since tested two.

More than 200 members of the Iranian Parliament signed a letter on Sunday, according to Iranian press accounts, urging that the atomic agency’s presence in Iran be further restricted, and individual political leaders have called for withdrawal from the nonproliferation treaty.

But Iran may be hesitant to follow North Korea’s lead. Such a declaration would signal to the world that Iran was heading for “nuclear breakout,” a rush to produce a bomb. Such a declaration would almost certainly build pressure for sanctions, and could lead to pre-emptive military action against Iran by Israel. “You have to think,” one of President Obama’s top national security advisers said recently, “that they would think twice before denouncing their treaty obligations.”

Instead, the speaker of Iran’s Parliament, Ali Larijani, who once led Iran’s nuclear negotiating team, warned Sunday that Iran’s cooperation with the agency could “seriously decrease” in the near future.

Tehran says its nuclear program is peaceful, and to date has enriched uranium to less than 5 percent, which is consistent with making fuel for a civilian nuclear power plant. But so far, there are no civilian nuclear plants under construction to receive that fuel; the two plants Iran is getting ready to open, at Bushehr, receive fuel from Russia. The absence of civilian reactors is one reason Western analysts suspect that Iran’s real intentions are to make atom bombs.

Iran has long talked of building as many as 19 more nuclear plants in addition to the complex at Bushehr. In the past, the plan for a total of 20 power plants resulted in a large gap between Iran’s declared ambitions and its envisioned needs for enrichment, and Sunday’s announcement sought to end that contradiction, at least in theory.

Western nuclear experts said that taking the declaration of the 10-plant goal at face value was akin to believing in the tooth fairy. “They’re hyping it,” said David Albright, president of the Institute for Science and International Security, a private group in Washington that tracks nuclear proliferation. “They couldn’t build that number of centrifuges. They don’t have the infrastructure.”

Mr. Albright added that Iran’s supplies of uranium were dwindling, casting more doubt on the vastly expanded commercial fuel goal. The result, he said, is that the new push for enrichment will probably end up producing “one small plant somewhere that they’re not going to tell us about” and be military in nature.

David E. Sanger reported from Washington, and William J. Broad from New York. Nazila Fathi contributed reporting from Toronto.

124 comments:

RayGun said...

Can we allow Iran to have a nuclear weapon?

I vote No.

If Iran fails to cooperate fully with inspectors, should we authorize a joint military response.

I vote Yes.

What if the military says the only way to eliminate Iranian facilities is to use a bunker busting nuclear weapon?

My opinion, that may be a better alternative than another invasion.

Casey said...

Wow RG. I agree with you. But if we do nothing, Israel will take care of it. They have before. (and please don't bash Israel and the Jews to me---that happens to be a sensitive subject for me. hint: ever hear of the JDL?

RayGun said...

"The Jewish Defense League or JDL is a Jewish organization whose stated goal is to "protect Jews from antisemitism by whatever means necessary"

I have not problem with the Jewish people. They've been put through enough and they have the right to defend themselves.

On the other hand they can't do Iran on their own. Plus they don't have the bunker busters they need. Plus the could start a whole religious war, which maybe we should just get it over with.

Don't all the good books predict a giant end all religious war?

Casey said...

Glad you know about the JDL. Good Wikipedia look up.
The reason that I am so suprised by your statement is that most Progressives don't believe that Israel has any right to defend themselves. They refuse to learn the history of the State of Israel and blame Israel for all of the problems of the middle east. Guess it is easier that way.

RayGun said...

"don't believe that Israel has any right to defend themselves."
--
I hear people blabbing that Obama hates Israel on and on. No one is paying attention to that stuff. Well except the birthers, Acorners, Tea Partiers, Don't tread on Me Group, etc.

Do you think it's time to just get the religious war over with?

Do you see why we are coming out of the closet? Big atheist ads on buses and billboards. Lots of new atheist books. Don't you see the danger?

And I am not worried about Iran and Israel. I am worried about Iran with a nuke and the US. The Iranians want to go up in a giant fireball. Doesn't their good book tell them that's what will happen? They look forward to it.

Casey said...

You assume that I am a typical Christian. I have told you before. I am no Bible Thumper. My personal history is more complicated than that. However, I firmly believe that spirituality is very personal and not to be judged. You have your atheism, and I would be the last person to want to take that away from you, or judge you for that. That is your personal belief (or disbelief) and is your business alone.

RayGun said...

Case, maybe take a gander at this site. These quotes from the link below, are the ones that got me off the kick. They just aren't true. And they come from Jesus's mouth.

http://www.evilbible.com/Jesus_Lied.htm

Casey said...

You are absolutely right. That is what is in the Muslim teachings. It is a beautiful thing for them and the ultimate act of faith.

What most people don't understand is this is not about religion to Israel.

RayGun said...

"What most people don't understand is this is not about religion to Israel."
--
Case, de nuking Iran is not about Israel.

Casey said...

Sorry. I was referring to the anti-Israel sentiment that I run into with most Progressives that I meet. Believe me, you are not typical.

RayGun said...

"anti-Israel sentiment that I run into with most Progressives that I meet."
--
What are they saying? "Leave Israel alone".

Israel can take care of itself. It supposedly has quite a few nukes.

Casey said...

No. that isn't the sentiment that I have been encountering. What I get is pretty nasty, actually. There is alot of anti-semitism still. You would be suprised! Without going into alot of detail, I do experience it alot.

RayGun said...

Case, what about bunker busting nuke weapons. Should we use them on Iran or invade?

Casey said...

I think that we need to use any means necessary to stop this. I think that it needs to be done before we allow them to get further along in their program.
I do believe that there is alot of "bravato" on their part, but they are undoubtably working on it

RayGun said...

"I think that we need to use any means necessary to stop this. "
--
So use nukes on them if necessary?

CJP said...

Gentlemen:

I am happy to hear that all of us on this site -- whether Progressive, Liberal or Conservative -- are in total agreement on these points -- Israel's absolute right to defend itself, despising anti-Semitism, and preventing Iran from getting nuclear weapons by whatever means necessary.

By the way, "whatever means necessary" does not include using nuclear weapons. Using nukes is not "necessary". Israel knocked out Iran's nuclear reactor without using a nuke, and that kind of weapon is in no way called for here. We have enough non-nuclear weapons to accomplish this mission without using nukes.

Not all Progressives are anti-Israel -- far from it. Personally, I find it impossible to understand how anyone can be both Progressive and anti-Israel. Sadly, far too many people are. I think Progressives who are against Israel are dead wrong and are totally misinformed.

The real question is whether Israel can knock out Iran's nuclear facilities without our help.

Iraq had a single nuclear reactor and there was a big element of surprise involved, whereas Iran's nuclear facilities are spread all over the place -- including underground. This looks like a much tougher assignment than Iraq was.

Iran today is certainly starting to look like Nazi Germany in the early 30's -- its re-armament phase.

Casey, are you part of the Jewish Defense League? If so, my congratulations! My hat's off to you.

Casey said...

What if the military says the only way to eliminate Iranian facilities is to use a bunker busting nuclear weapon?

My opinion, that may be a better alternative than another invasion.--RG

I think that we already agree on this point, RG

CJP said...

Ray Gun:

The Bible is not a book to be taken literally, word for word.

The people listening to Jesus 2,000 years ago did not truly believe that prayer could cause a mountain to slide into the sea. They realized that Jesus -- and all the Biblical prophets -- used hyperbole, vivid imagery to make their points about morality and living lives of goodness, decency, charity.

That's why Christian Fundamentalists cheapen and trivialize the Bible when they take the sections on Creation of the world and require that these be taught in public schools as though they were science.

They might as well have their own site called "Jesus lied" or "Evil Bible". The Bible has hugely influenced the world's morality for several thousand years.

The Fundamentalists are forcing the Bible to compete in the Marketplace of Ideas as a book of science or chemistry or biology. The Bible never pretended to be such a book and Creationists today should not try to turn the Bible into that kind of textbook.

Casey said...

Israel knocked out Iran's nuclear reactor without using a nuke--CJP

That is correct. Israel has taken care of these problems in the past, but has gotten alot of criticism for their efforts. I belive that they are being advised to stand down at this time.

As for my connections, if any with the JDL...Let's just say that I prefer to keep private on that. Most people don't understand the organization or the need for it.
I admit, sometimes the methods have not been widely accepted.

Casey said...

The people listening to Jesus 2,000 years ago did not truly believe that prayer could cause a mountain to slide into the sea. They realized that Jesus -- and all the Biblical prophets -- used hyperbole, vivid imagery to make their points about morality and living lives of goodness, decency, charity.

Wow, CJP. That is a GREAT way to explain it. We agree on this. It is foolish to take these things literally. Regardless of what you believe, what Jesus taught was a good way to live. It certainly doesn't hurt people.

CJP said...

That's right, Casey. I probably don't believe in God. I guess I'm an atheist, too.

But I do believe in The Bible. It's a book. I believe the Bible exists, and I believe it has had a great influence on the world.

I also believe that it was written by men who said it was The Word of God. I don't think they were lying. I think they were saying that this is what God believes, this is what God wants, and this is what God would say if He were capable of writing it all down. So, we are writing down what God stands for on his behalf -- we are God's scriveners.

The lessons and teachings of the Bible are what's important -- not every single word that was used in transmitting these lessons.

To say that God created the world in six days and He rested on the seventh day -- and to take that literally as a scientific explanation of how the world was created -- is nonsensical rubbish. It imports gibberish into science classes and, worst of all, diminishes the true beauty and real significance of the Bible.

It makes the Bible seem like nothing more than Sesame Street (with apologies to Sesame Street).

Casey said...

I understand what you are saying CJP, and I agree again. (UH OH!LOL) I don't know anyone of any intelligence that takes all of the Bible literally. Remember that they were also living in a very different time, with the scope of what the people knew and understood being very limited. The way to reach people at that time was through parables.
Not bad, CJP.

CJP said...

Casey:

I had a friend whose brother was a member of the Jewish Defense League. He was arrested as a result, and he spent time in jail. Why, you may ask.

I don't know if you remember this but, about 25 years ago, the offices of Sol Hurok in Manhattan were fire-bombed and destroyed or, at least, severely damaged. That fire-bombing was carried out by the JDL, and my friend's brother was one of the participants, which is why he ended up in jail. Fortunately, I don't believe that anyone was killed or injured in this incident.

Sol Hurok was a prominent and world-famous concert booker and impresario. He was engaged in bringing outstanding classical music troupes -- like the Moiseyev Dancers, Emil Gilels and others -- over from the Soviet Union to perform at Carnegie Hall or Lincoln Center.

At that time, there was a lot of oppression of the Jews in the Soviet Union, and Jewish-American groups like the JDL were involved in trying to get Jews out of Russia to freedom in the USA or Israel.

The JDL did not believe that Sol Hurok should be trying to improve relations between the Soviet Union and the USA at that time, which is why they fire-bombed Hurok's offices. That was a terrible mistake by the JDL. Totally stupid and irresponsible. It did nothing but hurt the JDL and everything they stood for.

Nevertheless. despite that reckless and inexcusable incident, I believe that the JDL is a great organization whose heart is in the right place and has done so many vital and important things which more than make up for this one piece of absolute stupidity.

Perhaps you can now understand how I feel about ACORN. ACORN has done a few stupid things, too -- although a lot less horrendous than fire-bombing a revered impresario's business office. Nevertheless, ACORN, too, is a great organization whose contributions to our society far outweigh the Moronic Prostitution Videos that are being foisted upon our "Great Unwashed" public today.

CJP said...

I doubt that we would use a nuclear weapon, under any circumstances.

The fallout would be too great, and most of it would fall back on us.

CJP said...

Harry Truman used an A-Bomb on Japan because it was the only way to bring to a close 15 years of gruesome, horrendous warfare which Japan had been fighting since 1931 -- with millions of lives already having been lost.

Only a few days before Hiroshima, the Japanese High Command had prepared in a private meeting to sacrifice over one million Japanese lives to try and repel an impending American invasion of Japan.

Even after Emperor Hirohito had recorded his Surrender Speech for nationwide broadcast, Japan had military die-hards who were trying to destroy that recording and stop the surrender -- even though two atomic bombs had already been dropped on Japan.

After the second bomb was dropped on Nagasaki (an alternative target that was hit because the city which had been the primary target for that day was shrouded in fog and clouds), President Truman took back from the military the authority to drop any future atomic bombs.

So, even in a situation as dire as trying to end World War II, our leaders tried to use atomic bombs as sparingly as possible.

Today, it is virtually inconceivable that the next nuclear weapon will be fired by the USA.

RayGun said...

Just back from afternoon movie. "Blow". It was ok and based on true story.

Not sure what it will take to deactivate Irans sites, but with Russia helping them, they probably know what they are doing building the underground sites.

"Today, it is virtually inconceivable that the next nuclear weapon will be fired by the USA. "

But what about another invasion versus a strike with a nuke, if it would work, without too much collateral damage?

We can't afford another invasion.

Casey said...

So you understand when I said, not all methods have been widely accepted. Bombings are not the preferred method.
The incident that you refer to was in the 1970's, and yes, I am very aware of it.
Unfortunately, it is a necessary cause, and we will leave it at that.
I have a hard time comparing the JDL to ACORN. But that may just be me.

RayGun said...

"They realized that Jesus -- and all the Biblical prophets -- used hyperbole"
--
But CJP, Jesus claimed to BE God. Do you think Jesus was God?

RayGun said...

Jesus said he was God:

http://www.godonthe.net/evidence/said_god.htm

Casey said...

Today, it is virtually inconceivable that the next nuclear weapon will be fired by the USA.---CJP

Damn! We agree again, CJP! LOL. We, as a people have a respect for human life and desire to preserve the loss of inocent human lives if possible. I do believe that. Unfortunately, we may well be up against an enemy that does not share the same value of humanity that we do, and will fight for a "glorious cause", regardless of the cost. It is important to intervene before we have to make the choice.

Casey said...

But CJP, Jesus claimed to BE God. Do you think Jesus was God?--RG

I believe that CJP has identified himself as an Atheist, however he doesn't appear to feel threatened by the existance of the Bible. Do I understand you correctly CJP?

Anon2 said...

Jesus never claimed that he himself was God. God was his father.

http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Where_did_Jesus_say_He_was_God

What this means (to me) is that Jewish people and Christians have the very same God.

I sincerely hope that nuclear weapons will never be used in the future. It would destroy the earth and all living things on it.

RayGun said...

John 10:30 "I and the Father are one."

John 14:11 Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me; or at least believe on the evidence of the miracles themselves.

John 10:37-38 [37] Do not believe me unless I do what my Father does. [38] But if I do it, even though you do not believe me, believe the miracles, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me, and I in the Father."

Casey said...

What this means (to me) is that Jewish people and Christians have the very same God.--Anon2

What people forget, and I am always shocked that they seem not to be aware of this, is that Jesus was a Jew. Some Christians seem to not understand this.

Casey said...

Oh boy. This is another difficult concept to understand. Jesus was a part of God, in human form. He is called the Son of God.
I have been on both sides of the fence. I am Jewish by birth, but converted. In between, I spent some time as an Atheist.
This is why I say that it is a very personal choice and not one that I like to get into. Can we not go there?

Anon2: no one wants a nuclear war, that is why it is important to intervene before that can happen.
Believe it or not, there are very bad people in the world, and they don't care about the earth or the lives on it.

RayGun said...

Case, try this one. God created the universe and walked off.

I believe there is no personal God. No heaven, no hell. Therefore God does not really matter. Einstein believed in that God.

Case, do you believe in a personal God? A God that watches your every move?

Casey said...

Whatever I believe has little effect on your life. If I am right about my beliefs, then good for me, but if I am wrong, then what have I lost? Nothing.
Geez, and you say that religious people try to shove THEIR beliefs down your throat! I haven't even tried.
Again...I am not trying to convert you.

RayGun said...

"Whatever I believe has little effect on your life."
--
People who vote for w and people who vote for Palin, and people who vote for those nuts have an affect on my life.

Casey said...

I know PLENTY of liberals that believe in God and go to church.

RayGun said...

"Whatever I believe has little effect on your life."

"I know PLENTY of liberals that believe in God and go to church."
--
All you nuts that go to church and have your kids in the name of God, affects me.

Pleasure and Pain. That is REAL life.

Yes, Blow is with Johnny Depp and that movie (true story) is real life. Get over real life cons. Life is real. Clinton forgive us all.

hispanicontheright said...

I see CutandpasteGun is fixating on religion again. For the millionth time. RG, do you have to go on a god rant in every post? I think we all know your position on religion. Dam this blog is really getting boring. I'll try again some other time.

Brandon said...

" Dam this blog is really getting boring. I'll try again some other time."
-HOTR

Dont leave, I am back after a very filling holiday!

RayGun said...

"I'll try again some other time. "
--
Thanx HOOTER, try again, once you get a clue, as once again are missing the point...

CJP said...

No, I don't believe that Jesus was God.

I also don't believe that he even claimed to be God, in spite of the language you are quoting, Ray Gun. I think he was speaking universally when he made those statements.

Jesus was basically preaching about the Brotherhood of Man and the Fatherhood of God. When he made statements like "I am in the Father and the Father is in me -- I and the Father are one" -- I believe he was applying that concept to all people who believe in God and who follow God's teachings.

In other words, in my view, Ray Gun, according to Jesus, you too are "in the Father and the Father is in you -- you and the Father are also one", Ray Gun.

I believe Jesus was saying that Man is created in the image of God and, therefore, we all have the qualities of God within us -- provided we lead good decent, moral lives -- and, of course, that we believe in God.

I don't believe Jesus was God. But I do believe he was a teacher, a rabbi, a reformer. I think he wanted people to lead more godly lives, and the godly things he said about himself he was really applying to all people.

As a liberal and a reformer with a social conscience, I find a great deal in Jesus' teachings to show that he was on my side. I think that, 2000 years ago, Jesus was very much a Liberal and a Progressive, not a Conservative.

Jesus' importance is not whether he was God or the Messiah, which I don't believe he was. Clearly, 2000 years later, the world is no better than it was then -- maybe even worse, considering all the weapons of mass destruction now at the fingertips of madmen. Jesus' real importance are in his moral teachings, which have influenced the world for the better.

I realize many wars and persecutions have been instigated in Jesus' name. But don't blame Jesus for that. He was dead long before his name started being misused for those purposes.

Brandon said...

"Thanx HOOTER, try again, once you get a clue, as once again are missing the point..."
-Raygun

Are you sure you werent talking to CJP?

RayGun said...

"I see CutandpasteGun is fixating on religion again. For the millionth time. RG, do you have to go on a god rant in every post?"
---
Nope BB, thats the HOOTER, I know his false words, unless you're not really the BB. Then I dont know the real answer.

Casey said...

if I am wrong, (about God)then what have I lost? Nothing.

Thank you CJP, for a very tactful and respectful synopsis of the Jesus issue. All from an atheist. Very well put and that, hopefully will put an end to this. No one is going to, or trying to make you a believer RG. Be what you want to be. I am good with it.

RayGun said...

"if I am wrong, (about God)then what have I lost? Nothing."
--

Pascal's Wager? JC ...

Brandon said...

"Nope BB, thats the HOOTER, I know his false words, unless you're not really the BB. Then I dont know the real answer."
-Raygun

Yeap, its me! I was refering to CJPs comments on how conservatives hate the poor.

Sorry CJP, but you dont have a clue when it comes to conservatives.

RayGun said...

"BB, Yeap, its me!"
--

Ok BB, we have to test if you are a spy.

Ok BB, if it's really you, do you like guns? Y or N

BB if Y above, what is your favorite .22 caliber gun?

Brandon said...

"Ok BB, we have to test if you are a spy.

Ok BB, if it's really you, do you like guns? Y or N

BB if Y above, what is your favorite .22 caliber gun?"
-Raygun

Yes
Marlin Model 60W

RayGun said...

Ok BB, last chance, before we declare you a spy, question: "What is your favorite military US rifle caliber?."

Brandon said...

"What is your favorite military US rifle caliber?."
-Raygun

.223

RayGun said...

"What is your favorite military US rifle caliber?."
-Raygun

.223"
--
Oh Gd, that was a close one. I thought we had a spy. This is the real BB. Welcome back Bb.

Casey said...

RG has been this way for days....
:)

Brandon said...

Raygun

Did you lose your mind not having me around?

Casey said...

I think that he is bored. He has only had me and Anon2 to talk to on this blog. A little CJP this afternoon.

RayGun said...

"Raygun

Did you lose your mind not having me around?"

Nooo, not really, just trying to get my head around reality. Just trying to get the other cons to grip reality...

RayGun said...

A2 and Casey, lets see some pics.

Whos with me? BB, CJP, HOOTER, who am I forgetting?

Casey said...

What do you want pictures of, RG?
I have some very nice scenes of Lake Michigan at sunset...will that do it for ya? LOL

Casey said...

This could get interesting. I lost a filling today, and am on Vicadin tonight. All I need is a drink and I am good to go, right?

Brandon said...

I have some pics of my trip.

Brandon said...

Raygun

When do you want to talk about health care reform, min wage, unions or anything Obama has been up to that effects us?

Casey said...

I have some pics of my trip

That's funny Brandon!

Brandon: did you see who Obama just appointed as his chief financial advisor? It's a good one!

RayGun said...

"I lost a filling today, and am on Vicadin tonight."
--
"Show me the money, Show me the money", do you cons get that movie?

Casey said...

Am I supposed to get it?

RayGun said...

"Am I supposed to get it?"
--
Show me the money, Show me the money.

"Jerry McGurire"

That's it. You understand it.

RayGun said...

Comon Case, lets see some pics.

Comon A2, lets see some pics.

Brandon said...

"Brandon: did you see who Obama just appointed as his chief financial advisor? It's a good one!"
-Casey

Castro?

Brandon said...

Raygun

What do you think of Huckabee claiming some responsibility for the 4 officers getting shot here in Washington?

RayGun said...

"What do you think of Huckabee claiming some responsibility for the 4 officers getting shot here in Washington?"
--
I dunno BB. I agree. 20 miles down my "The Road". My road. Fuck HKbb.

Fking words bb. Bono..;

irish christians. etc. tis a fk up deal.

RayGun said...

by the clan, bb, is the real deal. i thought he was a spy, but he passed the spy test, and he is the real deal, forweteverher that is worth :-)

Casey said...

I can't remember the name of the guy that he appointed (probably because I am on Vicadin--shit. Sorry) but he was a guy that lost
1.8 billion dollars for Harvard, recently from bad investments. This was a recent failure, and he didn't listen to the advise of others and "rolled the dice" and lost over a billion $$. Now he is Obamas new chief financial advisor. Whoopie!

RayGun said...

"Whoopie!"

Lets see some stuff Case.

"Blow", the movie, let it hang out.

Casey said...

Nice try RG. No place for pictures here.

RayGun said...

Nice cause Case, where are we going to go?

Brandon said...

"Fuck HKbb. "
-Raygun

Why would you say that?

RayGun said...

""Fuck HKbb. "
-Raygun

Why would you say that? "
--
I think it was just words going off in my head. Huckabee. Huck==*uck and bee==bb.

Don't read anything extra into it.

Casey said...

What do you think of Huckabee claiming some responsibility for the 4 officers getting shot here in Washington?---Brandon

I am watching him right now, but all he did was commute his sentence of 104 years to 47 yrs that was given to him at the age of 16. He had a reccomendation from the parole board, and the judge in the initial case that reccomended commutation. (9 years ago)
The people that are really responsible are the 2 Wahsington state judges that set him free on bond for 8 felony charges recently. The bond was only $15,000

Casey said...

The number of Americans identifying themselves as Democrats fell by nearly two percentage points in November. Added to declines earlier in the year, the number of Democrats in the nation has fallen by five percentage points during 2009. --Rasmussen Poll

They're bailing on you. Bailing...

Anon2 said...

CJP said...

"I believe Jesus was saying that Man is created in the image of God and, therefore, we all have the qualities of God within us --"

When I read the Old Testament CJP, I was surprised to come across a seemingly very HUMAN God.

Examples:
Jealousy, warlike, rage, delight, feeling sorry.

Can't think of any more right now, it's late here.

Jealousy: Jews paying homage to other Gods while Moses was on the mountain.

Warlike: Battle of Jericho, helping Jews win battles against the Philistines etc.

Rage: Flood

Delight: Noaha's offering of food to God. He smelled it and liked it.

Feeling sorry: He was sorry that He flooded the earth and promised he would never do that again.

You can probably find many more. It's been eons that I read that book.

CJP said...

I agree. The Old Testament portrays a very human God.

Jesus, after all, was Jewish and all his teachings are based on the Old Testament. What Jesus taught was primarily a Restatement of the Old Testament in different words.

As a primary example, take The Golden Rule:

Jesus said: "Do Unto Others As You Would Have Others Do Unto You."

The Old Testament said exactly the same thing, but with a double negative: "I would not do unto others what I would not want done unto myself".

Jesus was a reformer and tried to create a better world, but all of his teachings were founded on the Old Testament.

He was trying to reform the corrupt practices of his day, even among the priests (sound familiar?), and he was trying to bring the people back to the higher teachings of the Old Testament (which was the only Bible that existed in his day).

RayGun said...

"The Old Testament portrays a very human God."
--
We created a God in our own image.

CJP said...

Well, before that, gods were created in the image of idols and sacred cows.

Which image is better, Ray Gun?

RayGun said...

"Which image is better, Ray Gun?"
--
Hmmm, maybe no image at all.

How can we create a God in our image when evolution is responsible for how we look?

Isn't God the core of most of our problems today as no one can agree on what He is saying? And if you read what he is saying, in the good books, you can see where the confusion begins.

Think of all our modern day problems. 9/11, ungovernable Aghanistan, Pakistan, Iran, Iraq, Saudi Arabia, USA, and many others. Seems like You Know Who, while many claim He is misunderstood, is the problem. W invading Iraq asked his Father in Heaven what to do. The 9/11 hijackers were very devout. Iran is determined to acquire a nuclear weapon and start the final fires predicted in their good book?

Time to come out from our superstitious past, and live in reality.

CJP said...

Actually, Ray Gun, that was probably the real genius of Abraham -- Not that he created an all-powerful, all-wise, unseen God in Heaven.

Rather, that he created a God in the image of Man -- to replace the prior gods that were made in the image of clay idols and golden cows.

Casey said...

Isn't God the core of most of our problems today as no one can agree on what He is saying? And if you read what he is saying, in the good books, you can see where the confusion begins.--RG

God is not at the core. It is Man's imperfect nature that causes the problems.

RayGun said...

"God is not at the core. It is Man's imperfect nature that causes the problems. "
--
But Case, the good books, the Koran and the Bible, do tell the reader to do some crazy crap. So how can the man reading said crazy crap, and then doing it, how can his imperfect nature be to blame? Isn't he just following orders?

Casey said...

If you were to follow the teachings of Buddha, or Jesus,---strictly follow these teachings, there would be a near perfect world, but man's imperfect nature makes that impossible. We all fall short of perfection, and always will. Atheist still fight, and atheistic societies still have wars and social problems. To blame all of the world's problems on God is to ignore true nature of man.

RayGun said...

"To blame all of the world's problems on God is to ignore true nature of man. "
--
Comon Case, mans recent problems were caused by men listening to their good books, their Gods, the voices in their heads.

Casey said...

Whatever, RG. this is a really, really tiresome arguement. You base your whole opinion and arguement on the "proclaimed" actions of 1 man. Because of this, all of the good that any belief in God can do for the world is neutralized.
Hitler, Stalin, Mao. These were fine examples of atheists. So really RG. Where is the logic in your arguement?

RayGun said...

"Hitler, Stalin, Mao."
--
Case, women according to your good books don't even have rights that Hitler, Stalin, Mao gave men.

God condones slavery and woman's subservience to men.

Pretty sure, Hitler used God to get in power to begin with. Claimed a lot of his work was what God wanted.

"RG. this is a really, really tiresome arguement."

And you're right, I am, a lot of us are, really, really, getting tired of all the crazy Gods running around.

And get over the fact that God ever thought much of freedom. Cons think they own freedom because that's what their God wants? I'm sure you don't want to see the crazy bible quotes, condoning slavery, although I am glad to drudge them up for you.

Casey said...

That was not your arguement or your statement RG. Your statement was that all of the world's problems were the result of man's belief in God. All I did was give you examples of men that did not believe in God to point out that it is not the belief in God that causes the problems, it is, in fact the imperfect nature of man.
Now, if you want to branch out into the old testament and make your arguement there, that is another thing altogether. It is, however interesting to note that in Jedeo Christian countries, slavery, and woman's rights are non issues.
As for Mao, Stalin and Hitler....They did a GREAT job. How many millions of men, women, and children do you think that they murdered, combined? What great rights do you have at the barrel of a gun, RG?

RayGun said...

Regarding Hitler:

"He justified his fight for the German people and against Jews by using Godly and Biblical reasoning. Indeed, one of his most revealing statements makes this quite clear:

"Hence today I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord."

http://nobeliefs.com/hitler.htm

Casey said...

RG---There is nowhere in the Bible, that justifies the killing of Jews. Quite the contrary. That isn't even a misunderstanding of the wording. And that isn't even how Hitler got into power. Not on that premise. There were many more pressing issues in Germany at the time that Hitler used to his advantage. Do you honestly believe that the majority of the German population was for the extermination of the Jewish race? This is simply NOT true. And, as I said, Hilter was NOT a believer in the Judeo-Christian God. The one that you blame all of the ills of the world on.
Your original argument was that the belief in God is what causes the problems of the world. I have just given you examples to disprove that statement. You have not shown me that Hitler was a true religious zealot that caused pain and suffering due to his deep religious beliefs. On the contrary, he was not.

RayGun said...

"The one that you blame all of the ills of the world on."
--
Recent ills. Last 20 years. I never said "all" mans ills, down through all history.

You said Hitler was an atheist? There are many of his writings that indicate otherwise. Hitlers writings can make him say or be whatever you want. Pretty much like the good books writings.

You claim Mao and Stalin were atheists? Atheism does not condone murder and is not what caused them to murder. God frequently condones murder, and men frequently murder in his name.

How can you not say, belief in an imaginary being, is bad? How can belief in something imaginary ever be good?

Hitler was very much influenced by God.

Hitler:

"Hence today I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord."

http://nobeliefs.com/hitler.htm

Casey said...

You claim Mao and Stalin were atheists? Atheism does not condone murder and is not what caused them to murder.---RG

RG, like I said, this is a very tired arguement. I never said that atheism condones murder. That is just an example of man's responsiblility for man's problems; not religion. Now, you still want to go back to 1 statement, that may or may not have actually been from Hitler to base a whole arguement on.
It is widely accepted and proven that Hitler was not a Christian. Period. It is also NOT a fact that the planned extermination of Jews was how Hitler came into power in Germany. You have already said that you do not read history. This is very obvious in these statements.
Last 20 or so years? Here's one: Tiananmen Square. An atheistic society/government that killed possibly as many as 800 student protestors. Now, you tell me how many humnan rights that was done in the defense of.
I really can't believe that you made the statement that Stalin, & Mao, have provided more human rights. You must be one of the only people in the world that believes this.

Casey said...

By the way---the only religious wars that I am aware of these days are what the Muslim Fundamentalists are waging. And don't go pointing at Israel. The Israeli's are not fighting a religious war.
The Muslin religion is the one that you guys are always calling a "peaceful religion"

RayGun said...

"I really can't believe that you made the statement that Stalin, & Mao, have provided more human rights"
--
JFC, the bible condones GD slavery.

JFC, the bible makes all women subservient to men.

I can come up with hundreds more quotes like below. Again, just because you nuts don't read the bible, doesn't mean the nutty stuff is not there.

Kill People Who Don't Listen to Priests

Anyone arrogant enough to reject the verdict of the judge or of the priest who represents the LORD your God must be put to death. Such evil must be purged from Israel. (Deuteronomy 17:12 NLT)



Kill Witches

You should not let a sorceress live. (Exodus 22:17 NAB)



Kill Homosexuals
"If a man lies with a male as with a women, both of them shall be put to death for their abominable deed; they have forfeited their lives." (Leviticus 20:13 NAB)



Kill Fortunetellers

A man or a woman who acts as a medium or fortuneteller shall be put to death by stoning; they have no one but themselves to blame for their death. (Leviticus 20:27 NAB)



Death for Hitting Dad

Whoever strikes his father or mother shall be put to death. (Exodus 21:15 NAB)



Death for Cursing Parents

1) If one curses his father or mother, his lamp will go out at the coming of darkness. (Proverbs 20:20 NAB)

2) All who curse their father or mother must be put to death. They are guilty of a capital offense. (Leviticus 20:9 NLT)



Death for Adultery

If a man commits adultery with another man's wife, both the man and the woman must be put to death. (Leviticus 20:10 NLT)



Death for Fornication

A priest's daughter who loses her honor by committing fornication and thereby dishonors her father also, shall be burned to death. (Leviticus 21:9 NAB)



Death to Followers of Other Religions

Whoever sacrifices to any god, except the Lord alone, shall be doomed. (Exodus 22:19 NAB)



Kill Nonbelievers

They entered into a covenant to seek the Lord, the God of their fathers, with all their heart and soul; and everyone who would not seek the Lord, the God of Israel, was to be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman. (2 Chronicles 15:12-13 NAB)



Kill False Prophets

If a man still prophesies, his parents, father and mother, shall say to him, "You shall not live, because you have spoken a lie in the name of the Lord." When he prophesies, his parents, father and mother, shall thrust him through. (Zechariah 13:3 NAB)

RayGun said...

I think Hitler used religion to get what he wanted, just like cons use it to get what they want.

Casey said...

okay. You have found all but one of these Bible quotes from the Old Testament. These are not condoned in the New Testament. These were not Jewish Laws that were carried over to the new testament.
Again. I am not trying to convert you. The initial arguement was that the ills of the world are caused by the teachings of the Bible, remember? Show me a RECENT (witin the past...lets say 200 years) of stonings or witch killings. You are going back to some really ancient history to make this case. You made me provide you with a more recent example. I believe that I have done that.
The nature of Human Kind is the cause of the ills of the world. As I said before, if people were to strictly follow the teachings of Jesus or even Buddha, these things would not exist. Again, it is human failure that is to blame for the horrible things that happen in the world. Human failure, whether a Christian, a Jew, a Buddhist, or an Atheist.
I am really tired of this discussion. When you read some history and learn a few things about these subjects (such as Hitler, Stalin and Mao then we will talk. Have YOU read the "Quotations of Chairman Mao" ? I have.)
Arguing these things with someone who finds all of their "truths" in quick website articles and searches (hardly indepth) is rather silly. You tend to make silly statements, such as "Stalin and Mao gave more human rights to people" because you have no indepth knowledge of these subjects.

RayGun said...

Jesus believed that the Old Testament was divinely inspired, the veritable Word of God. He said, "The Scripture cannot be broken" (John 10:35). He referred to Scripture as "the commandment of God" (Matthew 15:3) and as the "Word of God" (Matthew 15:6). He also indicated that it was indestructible: "Until Heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass away from the law, until all is accomplished" (Matthew 5:18). Notice that he mentions even the words and letters!

RayGun said...

"It is easier for Heaven and Earth to pass away than for the smallest part of the letter of the law to become invalid." (Luke 16:17 NAB)

"Do not think that I have come to abolish the law or the prophets. I have come not to abolish but to fulfill. Amen, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest part or the smallest part of a letter will pass from the law, until all things have taken place." (Matthew 5:17 NAB)

"All scripture is inspired by God and is useful for teaching, for refutation, for correction, and for training in righteousness..." (2 Timothy 3:16 NAB)

"Know this first of all, that there is no prophecy of scripture that is a matter of personal interpretation, for no prophecy ever came through human will; but rather human beings moved by the holy Spirit spoke under the influence of God." (2 Peter 20-21 NAB)

Jesus criticizes the Jews for not killing their disobedient children according to Old Testament law. Mark.7:9-13 "Whoever curses father or mother shall die" (Mark 7:10 NAB)

Did not Moses give you the law, and yet none of you keepeth the law" (John7:19) and “For the law was given by Moses,..." (John 1:17).

...the scripture cannot be broken.” --Jesus Christ, John 10:35

RayGun said...

"The initial arguement was that the ills of the world are caused by the teachings of the Bible,"
--
God your worse than Faux News. I said our recent (later defined more clearly as last 20 years or so) ills come from RELIGION.

GD, you've been doing well in your con training on twisting the meaning of everything.

RayGun said...

Case Sweetums, why not try reading,
"Misquoting Jesus, Ehram". I have it in hard cover and have read it all.

It's a history of how the bible was created.

The scribes that copied the bible, changed it tens of thousands of times from one copy to the next. Often intentional changes, that corrected a seeming contradiction or deficiency.

It's mind boggling people still believe anything in that book.

Casey said...

Recent ills. Last 20 years.--Rg

You said it, and I did it, RG. Then you go back 2000 years!
For some reason you keep trying to convert ME---you are worse than a Jehovah's Witness at the front door!
You will get nowhere with me with this argument. I have already done the atheist trip on my own years ago.
As CJP said in an earlier post, the Bible is generally NOT taken literally, and must be put in the context of the time and the circumstances.
I don't believe that you have made your case for religion being the cause of all problems, either now, or historically. To now fall back on your standard "con training" and con bashing has just shown me that you have no real valid argument left

RayGun said...

"the Bible is generally NOT taken literally, and must be put in the context of the time and the circumstances."
--
You're arguing with Jesus, not me.

"Do not think that I have come to abolish the law or the prophets. I have come not to abolish but to fulfill. Amen, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest part or the smallest part of a letter will pass from the law, until all things have taken place." (Matthew 5:17 NAB)

So your telling Jesus what? That he doesn't mean what he said?

I know cons are not into words so much, and it's a really sore spot for them, and is why they dislike Obama so much. That's why you call him the messiah, etc, because Obama is known for his words, and cons think words only mean what their pointy little heads tell them they mean, not what man has generally agreed for them to mean.

Do you see how opposite you cons are to what Jesus said? Go read his parables. They were about you.

RayGun said...

"Suppose you hear in one of the towns the LORD your God is giving you that some worthless rabble among you have led their fellow citizens astray by encouraging them to worship foreign gods. In such cases, you must examine the facts carefully. If you find it is true and can prove that such a detestable act has occurred among you, you must attack that town and completely destroy all its inhabitants, as well as all the livestock. Then you must pile all the plunder in the middle of the street and burn it. Put the entire town to the torch as a burnt offering to the LORD your God. That town must remain a ruin forever; it may never be rebuilt. Keep none of the plunder that has been set apart for destruction. Then the LORD will turn from his fierce anger and be merciful to you. He will have compassion on you and make you a great nation, just as he solemnly promised your ancestors. "The LORD your God will be merciful only if you obey him and keep all the commands I am giving you today, doing what is pleasing to him." (Deuteronomy 13:13-19 NLT)

RayGun said...

Nice stuff:

You would think that Jesus and the New Testament would have a different view of slavery, but slavery is still approved of in the New Testament, as the following passages show.

Slaves, obey your earthly masters with deep respect and fear. Serve them sincerely as you would serve Christ. (Ephesians 6:5 NLT)

Christians who are slaves should give their masters full respect so that the name of God and his teaching will not be shamed. If your master is a Christian, that is no excuse for being disrespectful. You should work all the harder because you are helping another believer by your efforts. Teach these truths, Timothy, and encourage everyone to obey them. (1 Timothy 6:1-2 NLT)

In the following parable, Jesus clearly approves of beating slaves even if they didn't know they were doing anything wrong.

The servant will be severely punished, for though he knew his duty, he refused to do it. "But people who are not aware that they are doing wrong will be punished only lightly. Much is required from those to whom much is given, and much more is required from those to whom much more is given." (Luke 12:47-48 NLT)

RayGun said...

And below is what I said about Religion and modern day problems:

"Think of all our modern day problems. 9/11, ungovernable Aghanistan, Pakistan, Iran, Iraq, Saudi Arabia, USA, and many others. Seems like You Know Who, while many claim He is misunderstood, is the problem. W invading Iraq asked his Father in Heaven what to do. The 9/11 hijackers were very devout. Iran is determined to acquire a nuclear weapon and start the final fires predicted in their good book?"

Casey said...

Slaves, obey your earthly masters with deep respect and fear. Serve them sincerely as you would serve Christ. (Ephesians 6:5 NLT)

RG...Please. The slaves that are being referred to here are the JEWS. (gotta know the history, RG) Like I said, this is getting pretty lame, and now you are on a rant. It is becoming an obsession. Obsessions aren't good or healthy.

Casey said...

I have it in hard cover and have read it all.---RG

Hard cover, and everything! WOW.
I am done with this.

RayGun said...

"Slaves, obey your earthly masters with deep respect and fear. Serve them sincerely as you would serve Christ. (Ephesians 6:5 NLT)"
--
Jesus is telling Jews to obey their masters as they should obey Him? Uhh, Casey, the Jews don't obey Jesus, do they? Talk about not understanding history.

"It is becoming an obsession. Obsessions aren't good or healthy."

My obsession is you good religious folk put w in the white house. Now you want to put Palin there.

I love our country I guess, and cons hate it? Sure seems that way.

I just wish you religious people would quit obsessing about imaginary beings. Pray to mother earth if you want to. That mother is not telling you to go kill others.

RayGun said...

"Hard cover, and everything! WOW.
I am done with this."
--
Please come back after you learn something not on Faux News, or not a Faux recommended book, or a BS religious web site. Or just open your eyes and think what can not possibly be true. That's it, just try rational thought. Thanks.

Casey said...

RG. I am not the poster child for Christianity. I have no idea where you got the idea that I am. I am not some Bible thumping door to door religious zealot. However, you are far more than an Atheist. You are a religion HATER, and that is every bit as bad as the far extreme on the other side.
Keep your atheism, while I wonder who did this to you. So silly, your lack of belief does not threaten me, but for some reason the existence of belief threatens you in an irrational way.
This is why this becomes a silly discussion. I have made it a life rule of mine NOT to discuss things of this nature with anyone who is an extremist on either side. People that are extremists are not concerned with logic, and most always base their opinions on extremes and distortions. Other than that, you are probably an okay guy...

RayGun said...

"So silly, your lack of belief does not threaten me, but for some reason the existence of belief threatens you in an irrational way."
--
Again, your belief threatens me. You cons put w and other nutty cons in office and now want to put Palin there.

Except for being a religious nut, you are ok also.

I think you are obsessed about getting the last word.

Casey said...

Done.....

RayGun said...

Done..
--
Me too. Last word. :-)

Casey said...

Right RG---I'm done too. :)
(last word?)

RayGun said...

"last word?"
--
You're obsessed with getting the last word. :-)

Casey said...

Sorry. You're right. :) I'm done.

RayGun said...

I'm done too :-)

Casey said...

me too.

RayGun said...

"me too."
--
Ok next one that answers this post between Case and RG is a legal nut.