By Harold Meyerson
From The Washington Post --- Wednesday, December 9, 2009:
With a sweeping bow to reality, President Obama unveiled his second economic stimulus program on Tuesday. He didn't call it that, of course, since "stimulus" has become taboo, but the proposals he sketched will considerably amplify the government's efforts to combat the worst economic downturn since the Great Depression.
The key elements of the plan are a series of tax breaks and, conceivably, redirected TARP funds for small business and a doubling-down of the federal investment in infrastructure. By placing such a heavy emphasis on aid to small business, Obama is essentially daring the GOP to make his day. Republicans have generally opposed his stimulus efforts and particularly oppose the redirection of funds from the Troubled Assets Relief Program to anything but deficit reduction. Organized small business is a core Republican constituency. Obama's plan essentially compels the GOP to choose between its ideology (or, at minimum, its strategy of opposing Obama at every turn) and its base.
In putting forth a second stimulus, the administration is acknowledging the limits (while not disputing the necessity) of the top-down economic revival strategy that Congress and the Bush administration adopted by enacting TARP -- chiefly, a program to aid major banks -- last fall. The Obama White House has made the same discovery that Franklin Roosevelt's White House made 75 years ago: that propping up banks is not sufficient to get the economy moving again so long as banks look at a deeply beleaguered economy and see nothing but a sea of risk. By adamantly refusing to lend to small businesses, banks -- for that matter, capitalism itself -- compel the government to create the economic conditions that would entice them to begin lending again. So the government becomes the de facto banker to a small-business sector abandoned by private-sector banks, even though those banks have received massive public assistance. A more frontal challenge to conservative ideology, and a more difficult one for conservatives to oppose, is hard to imagine.
Obama's speech left open the possibility that his administration may have to do still more to salvage the economy. It surely will. Recessions that result from financial crises are longer and deeper than the merely cyclical kind. With one-quarter of U.S. mortgages under water, it will be years before construction rebounds. Moreover, this is the first downturn we've experienced since China and India fully entered the global economy, epochal events that have created a huge oversupply of labor for multinational corporations and global supply chains. If we expect U.S. manufacturers to rehire all -- or even most -- of their laid-off workers, we'll be badly disappointed.
That's why the nation needs a public jobs program in addition to a policy of helping small businesses grow again. The infrastructure investments Obama proposed will go part of the way toward meeting that goal, but specific programs of public employment, such as those created by Franklin Roosevelt and that notorious radical Richard Nixon (who signed into law the Comprehensive Employment and Training Act, or CETA) are needed as well. Roosevelt in particular understood that major infrastructure projects took time and a major investment in materials, which is why he established two programs in the depths of the Depression: the Public Works Administration (PWA) for projects such as the construction of the Bonneville Dam, and the Works Progress Administration (WPA) for more labor-intensive projects that were quicker to get up and running. He directed more than five times as much funding to the WPA as he did to the PWA, for the simple reason that Americans were clamoring for work and the private sector wasn't generating any.
When Roosevelt became president in 1933, he brought with him plans that progressives had developed over the preceding 30 years for public power and social insurance. When it came to public jobs, however, FDR was improvising -- progressives hadn't envisioned the Depression or how to deal with it. Obama entered office with a similar disconnect: His dance card was filled with health-care reform and climate-change legislation, but nobody had planned for how to deal with the most severe downturn since the 1930s. Roosevelt showed his mettle as a great political leader by pivoting to remedy mass unemployment. This is Obama's turn to do the same.
There's one more lesson Obama should learn from FDR. In the words of Anna Burger, the secretary-treasurer of the Service Employees International Union, "we need a hammer" -- one government official whose sole mission is to oversee the efforts to create more jobs. Roosevelt's hammer was WPA chief Harry Hopkins. If Obama had a hammer, his new stimulus would be more credible still.
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In place of extended arms, Obama accused Republicans of presiding "over the decision-making" that led to the financial crisis and then handing it "over to others to solve." He decried his GOP opponents for "waxing political about fiscal responsibility," adding, with an uncustomary bit of sharp sarcasm, "It's a sight to see."
--
The gloves are coming off.
Casey, where is the Time article which says Bill Clinton agreed with invading Iraq?
Obama entered office with a similar disconnect: His dance card was filled with health-care reform and climate-change legislation, but nobody had planned for how to deal with the most severe downturn since the 1930s. --CJP
Don't you think that he should have cleared his "dance card" of the healthcare reform and climate change and put a higher priority on jobs first?
His first stimulus was supposed to go to these "shovel ready" jobs...but that turned into a big fat load of pork to provide money for all of the dems "pet projects".
As for tax breaks for small businesses? WOW...He finally gets a clue! Maybe he quit dancing long enough to listen to a Republican or two who have been saying the tax breaks for small businesses were what was needed all along.
God! You people are so ridiculous!
And RG...GOOGLE IT!
"You people are so ridiculous!"
--
We saw with awe and wonder what w's tax breaks for rich accomplished. Don't you nin con poops ever learn? Are cons just dumb?
Dear sweet Case, blatherer of the party propaganda, I have paid 0 corporate taxes for the last 8 years. The company I contract to has about 2 million a year in revenue. 99 percent sure they don't pay any Fed taxes either.
I can't do this anymore. You guys have your left leaning sites, and won't ever even consider that there are other sites out there that have any valididy other than your own. You won't even CONSIDER READING anything else.
You accuse the right of having their own agenda, yet you fail to accept or admit that the left has it's own agenda as well.
You excuse the skeeziest of behaviors and rationalize the rest.
You repeatidly ask for links to things that you can easily find for yourselves (I have stopped providing those sites, as I encourage you to find it all on your own; read EVERYTHING)
The reasonable thing to do is to question everything on a subject before drawing conclusions, however you must not believe in that concept, as you rarely do.
When providing you information, I have purposely tried to give you NON PARTISAN sources whenever possible, but even those are labeled as biased, or they are ignored all together.
It is really incredible.
We have debated many subjects, but nothing has shown me better how hopeless this is, than the defense of Kevin Jennings and the fisting kit controversy. This really should not be a polical matter at all. How you can turn it into one is beyond me...(whether the boy in that instance turned out okay or not CJP, is immaterial, it may just as well not have turned out well, then what?)To top it off CJP, you admitidly had no idea of the age of the boy's sexual partner--(had the partner in question been 18 or 20, I doubt that it would have been controversial at all)yet you defend it anyway? Don't you find that a bit blind on the subject? Everyone FK's up once in a while, CJP, and I believe that in this instance, Obama FK'd up, and to be honest, I doubt that you would be defending this if it had been a republican that had made the appointment. It is that kind of blind faith and following that becomes scarey.
Reality is that there is not 1 single subject that we can agree on.
I am not a stupid woman. I am well educated, have a higher degree from one of the best schools in the country, and I came from where you are now. I was once VERY liberal. But the difference between us is that at one point I stopped just blindly following, and started checking it ALL out---both sides of issues. I can admit that neither side has all the answers, and both sides make mistakes. To not see that is the part that involves being blind and that's when it gets really scarey. Maybe I was the exception, I don't know.
What I do know is that if I continue with these conversations I am doing nothing more than wasting my time. Over the past several weeks I have had the opportunity to remind myself of how the left thinks. I am reminded that logic is not persuasive for you guys. Even as I write all of this, I realize that I am doing nothing more than making myself feel better, as the meaning and principles are lost on you.
So, enjoy your Bush Bashing, your Conservative Bashing, some Sarah Palin bashing, even the bashing of me. I don't care anymore.
I will leave you with this: On several occasions I have expressed my love for this country. I have defended it. Yet not ONCE have I heard that from either of you, CJP or RG. Not one time. That old Hippie chick, talks smack about America all of the time, but not once have you stood up for this country. A country that has given you so much. Sad.
Whats skeeziest?
I agree Casey. There is no arguing with cons, who will never change their minds. I argue for the fun of it, as how am I going to convince someone that believes in imaginary all powerful beings of anything real? And most if not all of the current con leaders believe such. And not only do they believe in imaginary beings, the said imaginary being tells them to help the poor and they make every excuse they can to not help the poor. How can the left rationalize with someone like that? And again, until this last crop of ridiculous cons came to town, I was a con. I liked Bush the wiser, and liked RayGun, as RG was right for the times.
Case try getting in there and mocking, using double meanings, etc, it's lots of fun.
"the said imaginary being tells them to help the poor and they make every excuse they can to not help the poor"
-Raygun
Last weekend I help collect food for the local food bank, donated money to the salvation army and next week I am helping a friend pay medical bills for her child that need open heart surgery.
I dont support unions, increasing min. wage or social security. My point is conservative do far more to help the poor than the worthless, money wasting government. Everyone I know who is receiving government checks could do without them, they choose to take the money just because its there. Meanwhile there are other people still in need.
Instead of complaining how conservatives hate the poor and wish you could raise taxes on the wealth, maybe get off your butt and donate your money and or time to help the poor!
"My point is conservative do far more to help the poor"
--
Right BB. By your own figures, from your NewsWeek source, the cons give around 75 billion per year. Most of that is through churches which we all know is a giant waste (minister salaries, church building and maintenance costs, etc). The GD gov suggested health care for the poor alone is 100 billion per year. JC BB, you are like Casey, comparing, bragging (or worrying), about pennies, when everyone else is talking about dollars.
"I have expressed my love for this country."
--
Lets all rag on Case.
JFC Case, you are so indoctrinated in the Faux News, Beck, Hannity, fking BS. The little Faux tears from Beck, on and on. When are you Chicken Hawks going to put down the comfy life and serve in the military? You want to experience communism, join the fking military. They will own your GD life for your term, plus many years after (they can call you back into service).
I think Case is having hormone problems. Just my opinion.
"maybe get off your butt and donate your money "
--
BB, are you another cry dog, like Casey, about loving your country and the left does not?
See BB, my problem is, when sorting nuts, I need to figure the right categories to organize you all.
You following me BB? You're generally ok BB, cept I think you are still fighting the God delusion. And HE taints everything.
"the cons give around 75 billion per year. Most of that is through churches which we all know is a giant waste (minister salaries, church building and maintenance costs, etc).
-Raygun
I believe your wrong, I havent donated a cent to a church in recent history, maybe sometime in the distant past.
The GD gov suggested health care for the poor alone is 100 billion per year. JC BB, you are like Casey, comparing, bragging (or worrying), about pennies, when everyone else is talking about dollars."
-Raygun
We already know the government wastes money, so who cares if they put 100 billion towards health care. Only a fraction will be spent on health care for the poor the rest will be wasted. You also forgot to accound all the TIME that is donated to help the poor. When was the last time you helped some poor old lady by fixing a rotten board in her stairs or changing a flat tire?
"You following me BB? You're generally ok BB, cept I think you are still fighting the God delusion. And HE taints everything."
-Raygun
What have I ever said to you that would lead you to believe I believe in a god?
"What have I ever said to you that would lead you to believe I believe in a god? "
Yes or no? Do you believe in a personal God, such as one depicted in the bible?
Yes or no? Was Jesus God?
This is so funny. "Liberals" make me laugh, and anybody who follows them really need to read into conservatism and what it is about if anybody wants to learn anything about how ignorant liberals really are just respond on here. I will be happy to prove my point
anybody who follows them really need to read into conservatism
anybody wants to learn anything --Rick
2 things that these guys DON'T want to do...learn and read.
Rick, these guys get all of their truths from the Huffington Post. If it isn't there, then they think it is a smear or a lie. Seriously. I have been trying to have a discussion for weeks, and believe me, it is impossible. Then they use the progressive tactic of name calling.
Go for it. I want to see this.
CJP I think you hooked a Dick, and his name is Rick. I'll call him RD for short.
Case sweetness, glad to have you back. Do you realize that HP mainly posts others news articles, including Faux News occasionally.
RD, do you watch Faux News?
I think you hooked a Dick--'Rg
WOW. Only 5 minutes before the name calling started. See Rick? What did I tell you?
"how ignorant liberals really are just respond on here. "
Comon case, his first post and he says that? I bet he's a teabagger also.
Hey, Found a great definition of TeaBagger:
1. A man that dips his scrotum and testicles into the mouth of another person. (as if dipping a tea bag into hot water)
2. n. A conservative activist who is so ignorant that they protest against tax cuts (that benefit them) by throwing tea into a river.
Comon Case, just take things with a grain of salt. It can be fun. Try fun Case, life is not all about money. We gather all these little trinkets, then we leave them all behind, in only a few short years.
RG, my problem is not with you. You aren't really offensive, you are actually pretty nice. :) (sorry to blow your cover RG)
I just get frustrated sometimes... There shouldnt be THIS MUCH difference.
And yes, I knew what the term "teabagging" means. I don't live in a cave...
"you are actually pretty nice. :)"
Just understand, sweet Case, there are some real dicks out there so you may have to plug your ears...
"I just get frustrated sometimes... There shouldnt be THIS MUCH difference."
I agree Case. I don't think a public option, considering what a crap job the insurance companies have done so far, is that ridiculous. And I am a little concerned that 40 million newly insured could overwhelm the system, but suspect the Gov will ramp up slowly.
Hey Case, wasn't Cider House Rules good? One of my favorite books.
Another, probably better one, of Irvings many good ones, "A Prayer for Owen Meany". I have a feeling that's more of a guy book.
Yeah, Cider House Rules was great.
Did you see the movie with michael Caine? Haven't read the other book.
You know that the Healthcare thing would not be put into effect until 2014, right?
Yes saw the movie. The book was much better I thought.
"put into effect until 2014"
--
Pretty sure it's going to be phased in. Our health system couldn't handle a huge influx, even though I can get an appt within about 1 hour any time I want it (9am to 7pm, anyway). Plus I (insurance) gets charged 250 to 500 hundred every time I say hello. Our health care system can handle more for less money.
How about Grahamm Greenes "The End of the Affair"? Faulkner said "For me one of the most true and moving novels of my time, in anybody's language." There are some annoying parts, and maybe most don't get it, but it is one of the best. And true, about life. God and love and etc. Good stuff.
Comon you crazy cons, what do you think about these series:
1)Mad Men
2)The Tudors
3)Wired
I am new to all 3 (last year+ or so) but it is incredible writing. I know, generally, cons don't like to read, but this is incredible writing without having to read anything.
We watch Mad Men. I like Big Love the best. HBO. Then I got hooked on True Blood. HBO.
Have you checked out Modern Family? Pretty funny stuff. Not very deep, though. Not a big intellectual thing, just funny.
Just saw the Jonny Depp, "Public Enemy" movie. Pretty good.
JHC, HBO rules. What have they got? They have a key...
They own TV. I only recently realized it. I watch HBO series movies, etc on disc, NetFlix, and its unreal. The most incredibly written shows I have ever seen. And the critics agree. Even Hillary said she loves Mad Men.
Mad Men is unreal, as is Wired.
Cons, try the Tudors. King Henry the 8th. Fantastic. A series, generally true stuff, and lots of religion, protestant reformation, the pope, be-headings (Anne Bolinn), lots of truth. Oh GD, cons, you get so little.
Do you, don't you want me to love you
Coming down fast, I'm right here above you
Tell me tell me tell me the answer
Ain't no lover but you ain't no dancer
Helter skelter
Lover, I'm on the street
Gonna go where the bright lights
And the big city meet
With a red guitar...on fire
Desire
She's a candle burning in my room
Yeah I'm like the needle, needle and spoon
Over the counter with a shotgun
Pretty soon everybody got one
And the fever when I'm beside her
"Yes or no? Do you believe in a personal God, such as one depicted in the bible?"
-Raygun
I am not telling! Its really funny watching you make assumptions on things you dont understand. Kinda like global warming!
In the shit house a shotgun
Praying hands hold me down
Only the hunter was hunted
In this tin can town
Tin can town
No stars in the black night
Looks like the sky fell down
No sun in the daylight
Looks like it's chained to the ground
Comon cons, Bono is a poet.
"I am not telling!"
--
BB its obvious. You are an agnostic. Please read what CS Lewis wrote about agnostics. Make up your mind...
There must be some way out of here
Said the joker to the thief
There's too much confusion here
I can't get no relief
Businessmen, they drink my wine
Ploughmen dig my earth
None of them know along the line
What any of this is worth
No reason to get excited
The thief, he kindly spoke
There are many among us
Who think that life is but a joke
Ah...RG. Old Dylan and Beatles. What could be better?
BUT--you need to answer Brandon.
Comon Case
BUT--you need to answer Brandon.
What? Global Warming?
Don't believe the devil
I don't believe his book
But the truth is not the same
Without the lies he made up
Don't believe in excess
Success is to give
Don't believe in riches
But you should see where I live
So, RG...Did you get hit by the big storm this week? You are in Wa state, right?
"So, RG...Did you get hit by the big storm this week? You are in Wa state, right? "
--
Nothing in Seattle and surrounding communities.
In the howling wind comes a stinging rain
See them driving nails
Into the souls on the tree of pain
From the firefly,
A red orange glow
See the face of fear
Running scared in the valley below
Bullet the blue sky
You say you want
Diamonds on a ring of gold
You say you want
Your story to remain untold
But all the promises we make
From the cradle to the grave
When all I want is you
You say you'll give me
A highway with no one on it
Treasure just to look upon it
All the riches in the night
Case and other cons. Please read "The Road". New movie is coming out, about "The Road". They spent hundreds of millions on the movie,..., and it's ??? The book is unreal. I have sent a half dozen copies to people.
"Heart of Darkness" by Joseph Conrad. JHC cons, what don't ye get?
Get about what RG?
You hate us, and we are right. What's not to get? LOL
I want to really study Shakespeare.
"Heart of Darkness" by Joseph Conrad"
--
JC Case, you know NOT what i speaketh.
WTF RG? Do you smoke crack at night?
Seriously. If you are serious, try to find Romeo & Juliet by Franco Zefferelli. It came out in the 70's (I think) but was done in true Shakespere. Really beautiful. Saw it, and loved Shakestere!
"WTF RG? Do you smoke crack at night? "
--
JHC Case, have you ever watched "The Wire"? Pretty good show. Try it and stick with it, and you will see.
Mad Men is knew, and The Wire is older, but The Wire is still really fantastic to me, as its new. Even though "the wire" has expired (series, and is new to me), try it and see.
Shotguns and guns. Lots of good stuff.
I will try to watch The Wire. Have you tried True Blood?
You cons agree, shotguns are the way to go??? Do you have the slightest clue what I am talking about?
Yes, I know about shotguns and handguns. Used to have a Rueger 9mm, but was stolen in a buglary. Never replaced it. Don't need it where I live now. Never even lock my doors in this town.
"True Blood", I will investigate and assume its HBO. JFCH, HBO rules.
Plz try "The Wire",
"The Tudors",
"Mad Men" (JHC, MM is my personal favorite...)
HBO FKers can write.
True Blood is a bit bizzare, but good. HBO. New season isn't out yet, good time to catch the re-runs of the first season
"Yes, I know about shotguns"
--
Hmmm, I suspect not...
I never used a shotgun, RG. Too big, too hard to handle. Nice handgun was just fine.
"I never used a shotgun, RG."
--
Has neither most cons, except Cheney...
So, cons favor handguns?
Actually, when I had my Rueger, I was a flaming liberal!
"So, cons favor handguns?"
--
So you want your hand on my Gun :-)
JFC Case,
"Across the Universe", do you cons have a clue?
Geez, Rg. I guess not.
Oh! Remember when we were talking about oour favorite movies? I forgot one---probably the best ever! Have you ever seen "American History X"? GREAT movie! Can't believe that Ed Norton didn't get an Academy Award for it. If you've never seen it, but it on your NetFlix list
I like Ed Norton. You are snocked, dear CC.
Not a drop, RG. Last time I drank was Thanksgiving.
Okay. You have to get American History X. You will like it. And Ed Norton is a big liberal, so it's safe for you to watch
Case honey, do you know what a big pistol I am packing? Truly...
Try the Wire. Pretty good show, so far from what I have seen.
RG, you are too funny...Gotta go to bed now. It is much later out here in Michigan.
Understand CC. Time is late.
"BB its obvious. You are an agnostic. Please read what CS Lewis wrote about agnostics. Make up your mind..."
-Raygun
Obviously it tell you nothing, I havent given you my personal view. I could be hard core atheist or a christian, you just dont know, just like global warming. LOL
American History X, I saw it, and it was pretty good. Norton had a huge pistol also.
Ed Norton didn't use a gun in that movie, did he? No he played a felon and couldn't have a gun.
I don't think you saw that movie RG.
JC Case, he had what looked like a Desert Eagle on his nightstand, and ran out the door with it when 2 black men were trying to steal his car. He shot at them then curb stomped one to death, which landed him in prison.
"I could be hard core atheist or a christian"
BB is an agnostic, because if he was really a zealot he would proclaim it as the good book directs.
Okay RG, you did see the movie. Did you think it was great? Great message. Very moving. Should have gotten an award
"Did you think it was great?"
I'm sure I gave it a 4, but not a 5.
I am more into the clever writing like "Whatever Works". I also really liked "Unforgiven" for some reason. Lots of truth maybe.
"Did you think it was great? "
--
Also thought it was a little unrealistic that working in the laundry room with the black guy would change someone with those extreme beliefs (Nortons hatred for blacks). I liked it when Norton was being released and the black laundry room guy said "Now take it easy on the brothers" or something like that. Plus Norton started having some empathy for the black guy, when he found out that the black guy was serving a longer term for stealing a TV and dropping it on a cops foot??? than Norton was for killing 1 or 2 blacks.
Yeah, I think that the laundryroom thing was kind of simplified, but the right message was there. Good one for kids at risk for this kind of skinhead BS.
"you just dont know, just like global warming. LOL"
--
"I just don't know" what BB, whether there is a God or whether you believe in a God? There's a big difference in the magnitude of being wrong in any of the 3 circumstances mentioned here. Again, you cons have a problem with whats important...
""I just don't know" what BB, whether there is a God or whether you believe in a God?"
-Raygun
If I believe in a god? You just dont know. As for the magnatude, I think being wrong on the god part would be worse than global warming. Spending the rest of time in hell or hades vs. the planets tempeture increasing a few degrees.
Just dont tax me to death on something your not sure of! (global warming)
"Just dont tax me to death on something your not sure of!"
--
I say fk it. I don't really care. I'll be dead, and all you believers, in life ???, kids will have to suffer. Not me or mine (as I have none). I'll be sleeping. Just like going to bed. Just like it was before I was born. Hey that was not too bad. The truth for once.
"I say fk it. I don't really care. I'll be dead, and all you believers, in life ???,"
-Raygun
Isnt that the liberal battle cry, tax the wealthy and spend spend spend!
"Isnt that the liberal battle cry, tax the wealthy and spend spend spend! "
--
Whats considered wealthy BB?
It's all relative.
Again BB, I don't really care if they do the cap and tax. Forty years from now Ill be dead, pretty sure.
"Whats considered wealthy BB?
It's all relative."
-Raygun
Your completely right, its all relative. Congress has decided anyone who makes more than them earns to much. Why dont we lower the top income tax bracket to around 100K? that still wouldnt include most Americans but would include almost all of congress!
"Again BB, I don't really care if they do the cap and tax. Forty years from now Ill be dead, pretty sure."
-Raygun
Another liberals battle cry, screw the future of the country. You guys on only living for today and could care less about the future stance of America in the world.
"Congress has decided anyone who makes more than them earns to much."
--
JC BB those guys (congress) make way more than 100k. I make way more than 100k.
I personally hate property taxes. My other taxes are not that onerous.
this is funny
http://www.heritage.org/research/features/budgetChartbook/Images/federal-spending_04-850.jpg
"the future stance of America in the world"
--
JHC BB, are you GD nuts? Go read, ooops, go watch the series Rome. We come and we go. JHC, you understand 1/50th of what I talk about.
"JC BB those guys (congress) make way more than 100k. I make way more than 100k."
-Raygun
I know congress makes more than that. My guess is they average between 140-170K, thus putting them in the highest tax brackets and their tax increases would be on them.
Congrats on getting over the 100K hump, I believe you also kicked it over the 200K hill. Thats awsome and you should save and spend that money how YOU want to, not how congress whats you to!
Regarding your jpg BB, its a matter of spending vrs GDP. That's what counts.
"JHC BB, are you GD nuts? Go read, ooops, go watch the series Rome. We come and we go. JHC, you understand 1/50th of what I talk about."
-Raygun
I understand what you are ranting about but I dont think are doom is set in stone. I do believe we CANT keep up our current course of spending what we dont have and losing jobs overseas.
"I do believe we CANT keep up our current course of spending what we dont have and losing jobs overseas."
--
I say fk it BB. You cons have spent ad infintium, so now that we have real problems, we should not cut back on spending. Just like you cons never cut back, but blathered about fiscal responsibility.
http://correspondents.theatlantic.com/conor_clarke/spending%20and%20GDP.jpg
Federal spending as a percent of GDP doesnt look any better. It spiked in WWI, WWII and with Obamanomics! What percent is going to be to much? What do you thing of the increase in government spending vs average income? It seems that government spending and personal income dont go up together as liberals keep telling everyone.
"Congrats on getting over the 100K hump"
--
It's all relative BB. Taxes, corporations, blah, blah. It's just a number.
"I say fk it BB. You cons have spent ad infintium, so now that we have real problems, we should not cut back on spending. Just like you cons never cut back, but blathered about fiscal responsibility."
-Raygun
As I said before I dont believe Bush was a conservative, A true conservative would down size government spending and pay down the deficit! Our country would be much stronger if it were debt free.
"It's all relative BB. Taxes, corporations, blah, blah. It's just a number."
-Raygun
I would be happy if it were relative but it isnt! 38% income tax compared to some people paying 0% isnt relative.
"Federal spending as a percent of GDP doesnt look any better"
--
Take some pills BB. Look at Britain now. Look at the US after WW2.
"I would be happy if it were relative but it isnt! 38% income tax compared to some people paying 0% isnt relative."
--
JC BB its federal tax. I cuss like a banshee when I have a huge tax bill that was not calculated correctly by my accountant (lots of excuses).
Everyone pays taxes BB. Fed taxes are really not that bad. I should really count and see what I pay, but I bet it's less than 25k per year.
BB, there are lots of loop holes. I have a lawyer (1500 year) and an accountant that tell me what to do, and I do it.
"Everyone pays taxes BB. Fed taxes are really not that bad. I should really count and see what I pay, but I bet it's less than 25k per year.
BB, there are lots of loop holes. I have a lawyer (1500 year) and an accountant that tell me what to do, and I do it."
-Raygun
Like I have been saying its all stupid, why should you have to hire an account to figure out your taxes and then a lawyer to help out. What if you filed your taxes at the end of the year, you payed about 15% of what you made without any write offs. Simple, easy, quick and fair. Fair Tax!
"What if you filed your taxes at the end of the year, you payed about 15% of what you made"
--
BB, there are incentives in place. Tax incentives. I have great computers. I have complete power backup to my home. I have top notch AC to cool the computers. It's complicated BB, stuffs complicated...
BB, I would never of did the additions to my business without tax incentives. It was way too expensive otherwise. Incentives
"BB, I would never of did the additions to my business without tax incentives. It was way too expensive otherwise. Incentives"
-Raygun
Why should the government be paying for you to buy new computers? Thats what it really comes down to! How about this, our government spends less money and taxes you less so that way you and everyone else gets the same tax breaks.
"Why should the government be paying for you to buy new computers?"
--
Well, because Intel helps defense maybe?
Who's going to pay for our defense BB. The 15 percenters? Comon BB I love simple, but the last 50 years was not that simple.
"Who's going to pay for our defense BB. The 15 percenters? Comon BB I love simple, but the last 50 years was not that simple."
-Raygun
Yes, everyone will pay 15% or what ever percentage is needed to balance our budget. IT REALLY IS THAT SIMPLE!!!
"IT REALLY IS THAT SIMPLE!!!"
--
BB, stuffs complicated.
Why are there so few 15 percenters out there?
"Why are there so few 15 percenters out there?"
-Raygun
Who are the 15 percenters your talking about?
You, and others arguing the 15 percent tax crap?
"You, and others arguing the 15 percent tax crap?"
-Raygun
Oh, why is it crap, why do you insist its so complicated?
My guess is that most people wouldnt support the fair tax because it would be a tax increase on them. Most Americans love the social programs they love but hate paying into them. This is why tax the wealth gets so much support, most Americans are not wealthy or at least making over 200K.
Raygun
How would you feel if you worked for someone else making around 300K? would you still be so willing to pay your taxes? Not having all the tax breaks you enjoy currently.
Like I said most Americans dont mind taxes as long as your not the one paying them!
You may of lost me BB. I am a business. I work for myself.
"You may of lost me BB. I am a business. I work for myself."
-Raygun
Yes, your saying you get tax breaks because you buy computers and etc. What is you worked for someone else and were on salary making 300K. You wouldnt get the tax breaks and would be paying alot more in federal income tax.
If you had no write offs and made 300K you would pay 82K in federal income tax alone! OUCH!!!
"What is you worked for someone else and were on salary making 300K"
--
Again BB, regarding your buds, the bankers, that are only making "salaries" of around 300k. BB, they are making their big bucks on stock options, bonuses, etc. You follow? Lots of loop holes....
"If you had no write offs and made 300K you would pay 82K in federal income tax alone! OUCH!!! "
no one pays that amount BB.
"Again BB, regarding your buds, the bankers, that are only making "salaries" of around 300k. BB, they are making their big bucks on stock options, bonuses, etc. You follow? Lots of loop holes...."
-Raygun
Lawyers?
Doctors?
""If you had no write offs and made 300K you would pay 82K in federal income tax alone! OUCH!!! "
no one pays that amount BB."
-Raygun
You may not but there are people out there who do pay that percent of their income in federal income taxes. You can only write off so much! House loan interest, stocks and so on. But dont forget you will pay taxes on stocks when you sell them.
Yes BB, doctors and lawyers make pretty good money. They have lots of education. They have a racket.
"Yes BB, doctors and lawyers make pretty good money. They have lots of education. They have a racket."
-Raygun
So do you think its fair that they must pay more in taxes then others who are given tax loop holes?
"You may not but there are people out there who do pay that percent of their income in federal income taxes."
--
Comon BB, its your farcical world we are talking about... No on pays that amount for fed taxes unless they are idiots.
"So do you think its fair that they must pay more in taxes then others who are given tax loop holes? "
BB, there are reasons for the loop holes. Stuff is complicated...
First time home buyers tax credit:
What are the income restrictions?
The amount of the credit begins to gradually phase out for taxpayers whose adjusted gross income is more than $75,000, or $150,000 for joint filers. It is completely phased out when your AGI is $90,000, or $170,000 for joint filers.
"BB, there are reasons for the loop holes. Stuff is complicated..."
-Raygun
Thats total crap! Its government pushing more crap: Buy stocks, buy homes, get bank loans! Why does government keep pushing to make more money for stock brokers and bankers?
You Got me BB. First time home buyers. I don't know the answers.
All I do know, is Obama is one smart fkr.
He's starting to take off the gloves. You will seeee.....
"Why does government keep pushing to make more money for stock brokers and bankers? "
--
Obama is turning that around. Your right, its BS.
"Comon BB, its your farcical world we are talking about... No on pays that amount for fed taxes unless they are idiots."
-Raygun
Why are you so naive?
"Why are you so naive?"
--
JHC BB, I live in that world.
"Obama is turning that around. Your right, its BS."
-Rayguy
WHAT? What do you think the cash for clunkers did for finance companies or the first time home buyers tax credit that doesnt need to be paid back?
"JHC BB, I live in that world."
-Raygun
No you dont, you just admitted you only pay a small percent of your income in federal income taxes.
"No you dont, you just admitted you only pay a small percent of your income in federal income taxes. "
--
After deductions I think I remember I pay personal income tax of 28 percent. JC BB, but that's after my corporate taxes have gone through the lawyer and accountants.
You have no clue...
Comon BB, they're are LLC's, Corporations, Sole Proprietors, S Corps, this is what you pay lawyers to figure out for you, and to take care of you, down through the ages.
Shit is complicated BB. You may one day see...
"Obama is turning that around. Your right, its BS."
-Rayguy
WHAT? What do you think the cash for clunkers did for finance companies or the first time home buyers tax credit that doesnt need to be paid back?
"Shit is complicated BB. You may one day see..."
-Raygun
That seems to be your excuse for everything. Trust the government because they know best, yeah right!
You were saying churches waste donation money, what about uncle sam? Did you catch the new pork in the 2010 federal budget?
http://sas-origin.onstreammedia.com/origin/gallupinc/GallupSpaces/Production/Cms/POLL/kh9ejbgwikwgplrixju4zq.gif
I was just going over Obamas 2010 budget and it looks like over the next 4yrs you can look forward to another $4.45 trillion added to the deficit and about another $600 billion in new taxes.
source: Page 3
http://www.gpoaccess.gov/usbudget/fy10/pdf/summary.pdf
"That seems to be your excuse for everything. Trust the government because they know best, yeah right!"
--
BB, they don't know best about everything. But some things are best handled with a profit margin out of the equation.
"BB, they don't know best about everything. But some things are best handled with a profit margin out of the equation."
-Raygun
One thing most liberals seem to forget are the responsibilities of the federal government! We dont need them to deliver our mail, retirement or health insurance.
We dont need them to deliver our mail, retirement or health insurance.---Brandon
You are so right! Look at what a great job they have done with the Post Office, Social Security, Welfare, and the like. Medicare has so much fraud---wouldn't happen in a private company.
Oh, and Brandon, did you see how many earmarks are in the healthcare bill? 5,000 earmarks for all of the "pet projects" for those Senators that pass this thing. Mind you, we already saw an obsene amount of that in the Stimulus, now they are going to ask for MORE. Typical government BS.
"Medicare has so much fraud---wouldn't happen in a private company. "
--
You are so right CC. With private glorious insurance companies running the show the elders annual premiums would be around 35 k per year. Plus we know how benevolent the fat cat insurance ceos can be, so we just about guarantee bankruptcy for most of the elderly.
The insurance companies would love the government to abolish Medicare,as their 7.50 per hour claims adjusters could fight with the elderly on denied payments. Think of all the new employment that would create.
You cons are wise beyond measure as is continually shown. Cons are the masters of the financial universe as the last 8 years with w have shown. Baaaa haaaaa, Gd actually, it's not funny, it's quite sad.
"We dont need them to deliver our mail,"
--
Yes BB, it's actually much more efficient to have 12 companies delivery mail to every single person in the US, 6 days per week. We could have 12 mail boxes out there, one for each company, so we could choose which one we want to deliver our mail. More make work. Sounds like a plan.
"You are so right CC. With private glorious insurance companies running the show the elders annual premiums would be around 35 k per year. Plus we know how benevolent the fat cat insurance ceos can be, so we just about guarantee bankruptcy for most of the elderly."
-Raygun
Since you seem certain medicare is cheaper than private insurance, prove it!!!
Dont forget to add in all the added taxes an elderly person pays every year!
"Yes BB, it's actually much more efficient to have 12 companies delivery mail to every single person in the US, 6 days per week."
-Raygun
I doubt if you would have 12 companies but you may have one or two who deliver 5 days per week and doesnt cost the tax payers more money!
"You are so right! Look at what a great job they have done with the Post Office, Social Security, Welfare..."
-Casey
When do you think liberals like Raygun will give me the option to opt out of social insecurity? Raygun says hes all for freedom of choice yet he doesnt want to give me a choice, weird?
it's actually much more efficient to have 12 companies delivery mail to every single person in the US, 6 days per week. We could have 12 mail boxes out there, one for each company, ---Rg
There would not be 12 companies. Only one to privatize the Post Office. We still have UPS and Fed Ex that are doing very well. It is only the government run Post Office that is in the red
"Raygun says hes all for freedom of choice yet he doesnt want to give me a choice, weird?"
--
It's supposed to be an insurance policy. Just in case the real world does not pan out like your imaginary one.
Ok, you buy an insurance policy, in case your grand financial plans don't work out, and Ill vote for private accounts. We know how astute you cons are in financial matters, as the last 8 years have shown.
But we are going to have to borrow another 2 trillion to allow your money to go into your private account rather than pay the current SS beneficiaries.
"Only one to privatize the Post Office."
--
Yah, that will work out real good. The money grubbers will have a full fledged monopoly with the goal to make as much money as possible, where as now it's non profit. Great plan.
"SS, Insurance Policy"
--
BB you might want to face some more truths about the policy you have to buy in case your great financial plans don't work out. The private insurers will insist that you do certain things and not be stupid and do certain other things. You know, like not investing in derivatives. And we certainly know that's going to get your panties all bunched up, as you hate to be told what to do.
I am starting to see a pattern with cons. They have this preconceived notion, trickle down, regulations suck, government sucks, I know best, etc, and when any example notion fails, you look for someone or something to be the scapegoat for why it failed. The problem is never that the notion was wrong in the first place.
Yah, that will work out real good. The money grubbers will have a full fledged monopoly with the goal to make as much money as possible, where as now it's non profit. Great plan.---RG
That is the whole principle of the capitalist society. If it is too expensive and people can't afford it, then it fails. They have to keep it competitive, as the Post Office was forced to do with package shipping (to compete with UPS) Right now we are getting one price hike after another on stamps, and they are STILL in the red.
I see you are still clinging to the cons vs lib arguement, RG. When are you going to get over it and accept the fact that your side sucks too!
"That is the whole principle of the capitalist society. If it is too expensive and people can't afford it, then it fails. They have to keep it competitive,"
--
JHC, Case, if a for profit has a monopoly on letter carrying, how the fk are people going to have any choice but to pay what they ask or not use it at all? Those slimy private bastards will come up with every excuse in the book to raise letter prices, pay their workers 7 bucks an hour and give the big boys big fat checks. You don't think that would happen?
Well then that is where competition comes in. We are almost there now. Phasing out mail with email and scanned docs, UPS and Fed Ex. There is incentive to keep the prices down, as we won't have to use them, if they get too expensive. I think that private ownership could run it more sucessfully. I find it hard to believe that it couldn't be run more efficiently and cheaper with better management and employees that give a shit. Have you been to a post office lately?
"Have you been to a post office lately? "
--
I used to think the post office sucked. Now I use them exclusively. Their 2nd day air is cheap, I fill out a form online, print a label, say pick it up and they pick it up on the next pass. Plus now they ship up to 70lbs for around 10 bucks (as long as it fits in certain size box)
They had to start doing that to compete with Fed Ex and UPS. That is competition for you.
Personally, I never use the USPS anymore. Pay all my bills online, and get all paperless billing. Competition is a good thing. Drives costs down.
"Competition is a good thing"
--
Then why the hell did you want to give a post office monopoly to some gd money grubber?
What about power companies? Do you think they do that great of job?
"JHC, Case, if a for profit has a monopoly on letter carrying, how the fk are people going to have any choice but to pay what they ask or not use it at all? Those slimy private bastards will come up with every excuse in the book to raise letter prices, pay their workers 7 bucks an hour and give the big boys big fat checks. You don't think that would happen?"
-Raygun
If that happends then stop using the mail, switch to emails and online bank transfers. No more paper, no more money grubbing monopoly over mail and more green. Isnt that what you liberals want, green?
"What about power companies? Do you think they do that great of job?"
-Raygun
Conservatives dont believe in your fictitious "too big to fail" theories!
"Conservatives dont believe in your fictitious "too big to fail" theories! "
--
Ok BB, you have once again proven you had no clue what occurred and how the whole farcical system could of easily collapsed and still might. Paper BB, think about it.
What about power companies? Do you think they do that great of job?--Rg
Yes, I think that the power companies do a pretty good job. Probably because they are not run by the government.
"Ok BB, you have once again proven you had no clue what occurred and how the whole farcical system could of easily collapsed and still might. Paper BB, think about it."
-Raygun
Its not just paper, its paper backed by assets! There is no such thing as too big to fail only wastful and worthless.
"Its not just paper, its paper backed by assets! "
BB, do you own any horses?
Quads?
Ok Quads, BB go wipe your Quads ass with the paper backed by assets. The bankers have pretty much made the paper worthless.
Long live the kings.
"Ok Quads, BB go wipe your Quads ass with the paper backed by assets. The bankers have pretty much made the paper worthless."
-Raygun
Isnt the title to my quad a piece of paper backed by an asset?
"Isnt the title to my quad a piece of paper backed by an asset?"
Yes BB as my paper in the bathroom is backed by ass...
BB, isnt your buddy Beck, backing gold in a big way? I learned this the other day.
"Yes BB as my paper in the bathroom is backed by ass..."
-Raygun
Nice, avoid the obvious and mock! What is your problem with asset backed papers?
"BB, isnt your buddy Beck, backing gold in a big way? I learned this the other day."
-Raygun
Yes and I think Beck is crazy! He does bring up some valid points but hes still very crazy. Why dont you invest in wood? Wood has always had value and never worth nothing. What about canned food, during hard times people will always need for.
JC BB, are you listening to yourself?
"What is your problem with asset backed papers?"
Its all just paper after all.
Don't you love your buddy Beck? He loves gold.
"What about canned food"
Try freeze dried. Canned food has a shelf life of 3 years(I dont want to argue about it), freeze dried has a shelf life of 30.
BB, I am light years ahead of you.
"What is your problem with asset backed papers?"
Its all just paper after all. "
Raygun
No, it shows ownership in an asset. What dont you understand?
Are you saying my title is worthless and I should just throw it away? Maybe you should sign all your papers and send them my way!
"Try freeze dried. Canned food has a shelf life of 3 years(I dont want to argue about it), freeze dried has a shelf life of 30.
BB, I am light years ahead of you."
-Raygun
Sorry, freeze dried foods. Why dont you invest in freeze dried foods?
"Why dont you invest in freeze dried foods?"
I have invested in them...
15% of your income?
Do you have enough that you could sell it for years to come?
BB, I am saying your stock is probably, eventually, worthless. I am guessing you dont have a clue about the different stock types, who gets paid, who doesnt, when the shit hits the fan.
"Do you have enough that you could sell it for years to come?"
JHC BB, I have enough freeze dried etc to last till the dust settles, and if I am wrong, oh well...
you mean like mutual funds or preferred stocks?
"JHC BB, I have enough freeze dried etc to last till the dust settles, and if I am wrong, oh well..."
-Raygun
You mean you will have enough to eat until the dust settles, then you will have nothing.
"you mean like mutual funds or preferred stocks?"
BB, they have so many ways of fking you out of your money...
"BB, they have so many ways of fking you out of your money..."
-Raygun
How? Give me an example how I would end up with NOTHING?
"You mean you will have enough to eat until the dust settles, then you will have nothing. "
BB, in the end, we all have nothing. I am just playing the game, as you are, and in the end nothing matters.
"BB, in the end, we all have nothing. I am just playing the game, as you are, and in the end nothing matters."
-Raygun
I am not talking about dying just after a financial collapse or something worse.
Under Chapter 7, the company stops all operations and goes completely out of business. A trustee is appointed to "liquidate" (sell) the company's ASSETS and the money is used to pay off the debt, which may include debts to creditors and investors.
Investors = Brandon
"I am not talking about dying just after a financial collapse or something worse."
JHC BB, you worry me...
BB, please try reading the book "The Road".
Carmac Mcarthy.
The Horses Trilogy (3 big books).
No Country for Old Men.
Blood Meridian.
The Road...
The Road is his latest, and in my opinion his greatest book. Very short. Very sweet. Very simple
"JHC BB, you worry me..."
-Raygun
Next time you make a comment try elaborating on what you mean. "when the dust settles"
Investors = Brandon
BB, you are fucked if you are talking about your machining business. The lawyers the courts, will get most of it. Let me know how it turns out.
"BB, you are fucked if you are talking about your machining business. The lawyers the courts, will get most of it. Let me know how it turns out."
-Raygun
Your really clueless today, have you been drinking? You were talking about stock holders and how people get paid.
When a company files a chapter 7 then the company is sold off and the banks and stock holders get paid back. Then I get a check and I dont own the stock any more. Chances are I would take a loss but would walk away with something.
All of which is tied into your stupid comment of "its just paper"
"Chances are I would take a loss but would walk away with something. "
Good luck BB.
I was involved with a lot of dot coms. Still am. It's horse shit what they do. You can wipe an ass with the stock options they give you.
Options, BB, do you know what stock options are?
"I was involved with a lot of dot coms. Still am. It's horse shit what they do. You can wipe an ass with the stock options they give you.
Options, BB, do you know what stock options are?"
-Raygun
Isnt a stock option when you get paid in stocks?
"Stock Option"
BB, its a bankers horseshit way to give you fake incentives to bust your ass for nothing.
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