My loyal correspondent, HOTR, was kind enough to send me the following comment:
"You want FOX to call the liberal Brown Noser a terrorist? OK, I'll do it. The liberal, Brown Noser and Bush hater was a terrorist. Feel better?"
Now, that's lovely, HOTR. Thank you for sending it in. Your comment really piqued my curiosity. I said to myself: "What in the world did Joe Stack say in his suicide note that would justify describing him as a "lib" and a "terrorist"?
So, I set out in quest of Joe Stack's suicide note and, lo and behold, there it was -- in plain sight, for all the world to see. So, just in case you may have missed it, here is Joe Stack's suicide note. Now, you tell me, what in this note would justify anyone, other than HOTR, describing Mr. Stack as a "liberal, Brown Noser, terrorist"? Here is his final note:
"If you’re reading this, you’re no doubt asking yourself, “Why did this have to happen?” The simple truth is that it is complicated and has been coming for a long time. The writing process, started many months ago, was intended to be therapy in the face of the looming realization that there isn’t enough therapy in the world that can fix what is really broken. Needless to say, this rant could fill volumes with example after example if I would let it. I find the process of writing it frustrating, tedious, and probably pointless... especially given my gross inability to gracefully articulate my thoughts in light of the storm raging in my head. Exactly what is therapeutic about that I’m not sure, but desperate times call for desperate measures.
We are all taught as children that without laws there would be no society, only anarchy. Sadly, starting at early ages we in this country have been brainwashed to believe that, in return for our dedication and service, our government stands for justice for all. We are further brainwashed to believe that there is freedom in this place, and that we should be ready to lay our lives down for the noble principals represented by its founding fathers. Remember? One of these was “no taxation without representation”. I have spent the total years of my adulthood unlearning that crap from only a few years of my childhood.
These days anyone who really stands up for that principal is promptly labeled a “crackpot”, traitor and worse. While very few working people would say they haven’t had their fair share of taxes (as can I), in my lifetime I can say with a great degree of certainty that there has never been a politician cast a vote on any matter with the likes of me or my interests in mind. Nor, for that matter, are they the least bit interested in me or anything I have to say.
Why is it that a handful of thugs and plunderers can commit unthinkable atrocities (and in the case of the GM executives, for scores of years) and when it’s time for their gravy train to crash under the weight of their gluttony and overwhelming stupidity, the force of the full federal government has no difficulty coming to their aid within days if not hours? Yet at the same time, the joke we call the American medical system, including the drug and insurance companies, are murdering tens of thousands of people a year and stealing from the corpses and victims they cripple, and this country’s leaders don’t see this as important as bailing out a few of their vile, rich cronies. Yet, the political “representatives” (thieves, liars, and self-serving scumbags is far more accurate) have endless time to sit around for year after year and debate the state of the “terrible health care problem”. It’s clear they see no crisis as long as the dead people don’t get in the way of their corporate profits rolling in.
Well Mr. Big Brother IRS man... take my pound of flesh and sleep well. And justice? You’ve got to be kidding! How can any rational individual explain that white elephant conundrum in the middle of our tax system and, indeed, our entire legal system? Here we have a system that is, by far, too complicated for the brightest of the master scholars to understand. Yet, it mercilessly “holds accountable” its victims, claiming that they’re responsible for fully complying with laws not even the experts understand. The law “requires” a signature on the bottom of a tax filing; yet no one can say truthfully that they understand what they are signing; if that’s not “duress” than what is. If this is not the measure of a totalitarian regime, nothing is.
How did I get here? My introduction to the real American nightmare starts back in the early ‘80s. Unfortunately after more than 16 years of school, somewhere along the line I picked up the absurd, pompous notion that I could read and understand plain English. Some friends introduced me to a group of people who were having ‘tax code’ readings and discussions. In particular, zeroed in on a section relating to the wonderful “exemptions” that make institutions like the vulgar, corrupt Catholic Church so incredibly wealthy. We carefully studied the law (with the help of some of the “best”, high-paid, experienced tax lawyers in the business), and then began to do exactly what the “big boys” were doing (except that we weren’t steeling from our congregation or lying to the government about our massive profits in the name of God). We took a great deal of care to make it all visible, following all of the rules, exactly the way the law said it was to be done.
The intent of this exercise and our efforts was to bring about a much-needed re- evaluation of the laws that allow the monsters of organized religion to make such a mockery of people who earn an honest living. However, this is where I learned that there are two “interpretations” for every law; one for the very rich, and one for the rest of us... Oh, and the monsters are the very ones making and enforcing the laws; the inquisition is still alive and well today in this country.
That little lesson in patriotism cost me $40,000+, 10 years of my life, and set my retirement plans back to 0. It made me realize for the first time that I live in a country with an ideology that is based on a total and complete lie. It also made me realize, not only how naive I had been, but also the incredible stupidity of the American public; that they buy, hook, line, and sinker, the crap about their “freedom”... and that they continue to do so with eyes closed in the face of overwhelming evidence and all that keeps happening in front of them.
Well Mr. Big Brother IRS man... take my pound of flesh and sleep well. Before even having to make a shaky recovery from the sting of the first lesson on what justice really means in this country (around 1984 after making my way through engineering school and still another five years of “paying my dues”), I felt I finally had to take a chance of launching my dream of becoming an independent engineer. On the subjects of engineers and dreams of independence, I should digress somewhat to say that I’m sure that I inherited the fascination for creative problem solving from my father. I realized this at a very young age.
The significance of independence, however, came much later during my early years of college; at the age of 18 or 19 when I was living on my own as student in an apartment in Harrisburg, Pennsylvania. My neighbor was an elderly retired woman (80+ seemed ancient to me at that age) who was the widowed wife of a retired steel worker. Her husband had worked all his life in the steel mills of central Pennsylvania with promises from big business and the union that, for his 30 years of service, he would have a pension and medical care to look forward to in his retirement. Instead he was one of the thousands who got nothing because the incompetent mill management and corrupt union (not to mention the government) raided their pension funds and stole their retirement. All she had was social security to live on.
In retrospect, the situation was laughable because here I was living on peanut butter and bread (or Ritz crackers when I could afford to splurge) for months at a time. When I got to know this poor figure and heard her story I felt worse for her plight than for my own (I, after all, I thought I had everything to in front of me). I was genuinely appalled at one point, as we exchanged stories and commiserated with each other over our situations, when she in her grandmotherly fashion tried to convince me that I would be “healthier” eating cat food (like her) rather than trying to get all my substance from peanut butter and bread. I couldn’t quite go there, but the impression was made. I decided that I didn’t trust big business to take care of me, and that I would take responsibility for my own future and myself.
Return to the early ‘80s, and here I was off to a terrifying start as a ‘wet-behind- the-ears’ contract software engineer... and two years later, thanks to the fine backroom, midnight effort by the sleazy executives of Arthur Andersen (the very same folks who later brought us Enron and other such calamities) and an equally sleazy New York Senator (Patrick Moynihan), we saw the passage of 1986 tax reform act with its section 1706. For you who are unfamiliar, here is the core text of the IRS Section 1706, defining the treatment of workers (such as contract engineers) for tax purposes.
Well Mr. Big Brother IRS man... take my pound of flesh and sleep well.
SEC. 1706. TREATMENT OF CERTAIN TECHNICAL PERSONNEL.
(a) IN GENERAL - Section 530 of the Revenue Act of 1978 is amended by adding at the end thereof the following new subsection:
(d) EXCEPTION. - This section shall not apply in the case of an individual who pursuant to an arrangement between the taxpayer and another person, provides services for such other person as an engineer, designer, drafter, computer programmer, systems analyst, or other similarly skilled worker engaged in a similar line of work.
(b) EFFECTIVE DATE. - The amendment made by this section shall apply to remuneration paid and services rendered after December 31, 1986.
Note:
• • •
"another person" is the client in the traditional job-shop relationship. "taxpayer" is the recruiter, broker, agency, or job shop. "individual", "employee", or "worker" is you.
Admittedly, you need to read the treatment to understand what it is saying but it’s not very complicated. The bottom line is that they may as well have put my name right in the text of section (d). Moreover, they could only have been more blunt if they would have came out and directly declared me a criminal and non-citizen slave.Twenty years later, I still can’t believe my eyes.
During 1987, I spent close to $5000 of my ‘pocket change’, and at least 1000 hours of my time writing, printing, and mailing to any senator, congressman, governor, or slug that might listen; none did, and they universally treated me as if I was wasting their time. I spent countless hours on the L.A. freeways driving to meetings and any and all of the disorganized professional groups who were attempting to mount a campaign against this atrocity. This, only to discover that our efforts were being easily derailed by a few moles from the brokers who were just beginning to enjoy the windfall from the new declaration of their “freedom”. Oh, and don’t forget, for all of the time I was spending on this, I was losing income that I couldn’t bill clients.
After months of struggling it had clearly gotten to be a futile exercise. The best we could get for all of our trouble is a pronouncement from an IRS mouthpiece that they weren’t going to enforce that provision (read harass engineers and scientists). This immediately proved to be a lie, and the mere existence of the regulation began to have its impact on my bottom line; this, of course, was the intended effect. Again, rewind my retirement plans back to 0 and shift them into idle. If I had any sense, I clearly should have left abandoned engineering and never looked back.
Instead I got busy working 100-hour workweeks. Then came the L.A. depression of the early 1990s. Our leaders decided that they didn’t need the all of those extra Air Force bases they had in Southern California, so they were closed; just like that. The result was economic devastation in the region that rivaled the widely publicized Texas S&L fiasco. However, because the government caused it, no one gave a shit about all of the young families who lost their homes or street after street of boarded up houses abandoned to the wealthy loan companies who received government funds to “shore up” their windfall. Again, I lost my retirement.
Years later, after weathering a divorce and the constant struggle trying to build some momentum with my business, I find myself once again beginning to finally pick up some speed. Then came the .COM bust and the 911 nightmare. Our leaders decided that all aircraft were grounded for what seemed like an eternity; and long after that, ‘special’ facilities like San Francisco were on security alert for months. This made access to my customers prohibitively expensive. Ironically, after what they had done the Government came to the aid of the airlines with billions of our tax dollars ... as usual they left me to rot and die while they bailed out their rich, incompetent cronies WITH MY MONEY! After these events, there went my business but not quite yet all of my retirement and savings.
By this time, I’m thinking that it might be good for a change. Bye to California, I’ll try Austin for a while. So I moved, only to find out that this is a place with a highly inflated sense of self-importance and where damn little real engineering work is done. I’ve never experienced such a hard time finding work. The rates are 1/3 of what I was earning before the crash, because pay rates here are fixed by the three or four large companies in the area who are in collusion to drive down prices and wages... and this happens because the justice department is all on the take and doesn’t give a fuck about serving anyone or anything but themselves and their rich buddies.
To survive, I was forced to cannibalize my savings and retirement, the last of which was a small IRA. This came in a year with mammoth expenses and not a single dollar of income. I filed no return that year thinking that because I didn’t have any income there was no need. The sleazy government decided that they disagreed. But they didn’t notify me in time for me to launch a legal objection so when I attempted to get a protest filed with the court I was told I was no longer entitled to due process because the time to file ran out. Bend over for another $10,000 helping of justice.
So now we come to the present. After my experience with the CPA world, following the business crash I swore that I’d never enter another accountant’s office again. But here I am with a new marriage and a boatload of undocumented income, not to mention an expensive new business asset, a piano, which I had no idea how to handle. After considerable thought I decided that it would be irresponsible NOT to get professional help; a very big mistake.
When we received the forms back I was very optimistic that they were in order. I had taken all of the years information to Bill Ross, and he came back with results very similar to what I was expecting. Except that he had neglected to include the contents of Sheryl’s unreported income; $12,700 worth of it. To make matters worse, Ross knew all along this was missing and I didn’t have a clue until he pointed it out in the middle of the audit. By that time it had become brutally evident that he was representing himself and not me.
This left me stuck in the middle of this disaster trying to defend transactions that have no relationship to anything tax-related (at least the tax-related transactions were poorly documented). Things I never knew anything about and things my wife had no clue would ever matter to anyone. The end result is... well, just look around.
I remember reading about the stock market crash before the “great” depression and how there were wealthy bankers and businessmen jumping out of windows when they realized they screwed up and lost everything. Isn’t it ironic how far we’ve come in 60 years in this country that they now know how to fix that little economic problem; they just steal from the middle class (who doesn’t have any say in it, elections are a joke) to cover their asses and it’s “business-as-usual”. Now when the wealthy fuck up, the poor get to die for the mistakes... isn’t that a clever, tidy solution.
As government agencies go, the FAA is often justifiably referred to as a tombstone agency, though they are hardly alone. The recent presidential puppet GW Bush and his cronies in their eight years certainly reinforced for all of us that this criticism rings equally true for all of the government. Nothing changes unless there is a body count (unless it is in the interest of the wealthy sows at the government trough). In a government full of hypocrites from top to bottom, life is as cheap as their lies and their self-serving laws.
I know I’m hardly the first one to decide I have had all I can stand. It has always been a myth that people have stopped dying for their freedom in this country, and it isn’t limited to the blacks, and poor immigrants. I know there have been countless before me and there are sure to be as many after. But I also know that by not adding my body to the count, I insure nothing will change. I choose to not keep looking over my shoulder at “big brother” while he strips my carcass, I choose not to ignore what is going on all around me, I choose not to pretend that business as usual won’t continue; I have just had enough.
I can only hope that the numbers quickly get too big to be white washed and ignored that the American zombies wake up and revolt; it will take nothing less. I would only hope that by striking a nerve that stimulates the inevitable double standard, knee-jerk government reaction that results in more stupid draconian restrictions people wake up and begin to see the pompous political thugs and their mindless minions for what they are. Sadly, though I spent my entire life trying to believe it wasn’t so, but violence not only is the answer, it is the only answer. The cruel joke is that the really big chunks of shit at the top have known this all along and have been laughing, at and using this awareness against, fools like me all along.
I saw it written once that the definition of insanity is repeating the same process over and over and expecting the outcome to suddenly be different. I am finally ready to stop this insanity. Well, Mr. Big Brother IRS man, let’s try something different; take my pound of flesh and sleep well.
The Communist Creed: From each according to his ability, to each according to his need.
The Capitalist Creed: From each according to his gullibility, to each according to his greed.
Joe Stack (1956-2010) 02/18/2010
Once again, I ask: What genius decided that this suicide note shows that Joe Stack was a "liberal" or a "terrorist"?
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234 comments:
1 – 200 of 234 Newer› Newest»Well, here is your thread.
"Would Fox News Be So Sure The Austin Plane Crash Was Not A Terrorist If The Pilot Had Been Muslim?"
It must have escaped your mind that
RayGun said...
Sure talks about evil government, big brother, evil IRS, if it sounds like a licker, if it smells like a licker, it must be a licker.
When you thought it was a con it was ok to call him a terrorist.
It's clear he was no con.
It seemed to bother you that they did not call him a terrorist. It's strange but it sounded like you wanted someone to call him a terrorist.
So I said this:
hispanicontheright said...
You want FOX to call the liberal Brown Noser a terrorist?
OK, I'll do it. The liberal, Brown Noser and Bush hater was a terrorist.
Feel better?
__________________________________
You somehow wanted FOX to call him a terrorist didn't you.
Make up your mind.
CJP said...
Now, you tell me, what in this note would justify anyone, other than HOTR, in describing Mr. Stack as a "liberal, Brown Noser, terrorist"?
Now I know you're a fair person so why don't you ask RayGun the same question? I'll help you with your own words.
"Now, you tell me, what in this note would justify anyone, other than RAYGUN, in describing Mr. Stack as a "con, terrorist"?"
You're a FAIR person right CJP?
Here's a neat little quote for you CJP:
"The recent presidential puppet GW Bush and his cronies in their eight years certainly reinforced for all us that this criticism rings equally true for all of the government."
Doesn't sound too republican friendly does he....
CJP, did you miss the part where he rails against big business and insurance companies?
Finally made it to the big time. I do feel honored that you started a post in my honor.
lol
Just wished you could get the correct slant.
HOTR, you are a constant source of inspiration to me.
lol
You're ok CJP. All you libs are.
I've said it once and I'll say it again.
Never take what I say personally.
I'd have a beer with any one of you.
Sure sounded like he was obsessed with taxes and government to me. Who does that sound more like, a con licker or a lib?
"And in Indiana, Richard Behney, a Republican Senate candidate, told Tea Party supporters what he would do if the 2010 elections did not produce results to his liking: “I’m cleaning my guns and getting ready for the big show. And I’m serious about that, and I bet you are, too."
Thanks be to God, cons be chicken hawks.
--
For Case, from an earlier post, who asked when do lickers make threats.
See how lickers and bible thumpers operate? They take one statement from thousands, such as Jesus's "The poor you will always have with you, and you can help them any time you want. But you will not always have me." And build a creed of not needing to help the poor on that one small bit alone. Just like they take the crazy Texass terrorist teabaggers one or 2 sentence ramblings about communism to prove he was a lib, when hundreds of his other statements indicate licker leanings. How can anyone argue with logic like that?
TeaBaggers, keep talking, keep inciting, and we will have massive job growth in prison construction. But con lickers are so deranged, like the crazy Texass licker, that they think of themselves as patriots, not terrorists.
I think Obama will have to crack down on licker terrorists. You know, he must show himself tough on terrorism else the scared soccer moms won't vote for him. Funny how some of those same soccer mom's may be indicted for the very same terrorism that is being fomented by the extreme right wing.
HOTR said: "CJP, did you miss the part where he rails against big business and insurance companies?"
Actually, HOTR, that does not make Joe Stack a "lib" or a "terrorist". Railing against big business and insurance companies is as All-American as apple pie. Everybody does it. That's a very non-partisan thing. Actually, Joe's note makes him sound like a small businessman, who worked hard and played by the rules, and was not particularly political. He just felt he was unfairly screwed by the IRS and by the system.
hispanicontheright said...
"You want FOX to call the liberal Brown Noser a terrorist?"
Actually, we did not want FOX to call Joe Stack a "terrorist". Clearly, he was not.
The issue was that FOX and many other Cons were quick to label NIdal Malik Hasan a "terrorist", when he was not one either.
Stack and Hasan were two very similar situations -- two individuals who cracked under mental and psychological pressures, and went on a deadly rampage. Neither one of them fits the description of a terrorist.
Is the only difference that Hasan was a Muslim and Stack was not -- that a Muslim who cracks up and commits mayhem is a "terrorist", but a Non-Muslim who commits a similar act is a non-terrorist?
RayGun said...
Sure sounded like he was obsessed with taxes and government to me. Who does that sound more like, a con licker or a lib?
He really sounds like a lib when he says:
"The recent presidential puppet GW Bush and his cronies in their eight years certainly reinforced for all us that this criticism rings equally true for all of the government."
I don't think I've ever heard one lib that gave Bush credit for anything.
Let's see 'puppet president'.
Sure sounds like something CJP and RG would say.
I think it's a non-issue.
RayGun said...
Sure talks about evil government, big brother, evil IRS, if it sounds like a licker, if it smells like a licker, it must be a licker.
and you said this.
"Would Fox News Be So Sure The Austin Plane Crash Was Not A Terrorist If The Pilot Had Been Muslim?"
What's the big deal?
With all the crap that Obama is dumping on us, this is the bullshit you want to talk about??
Republicans get pissed about high unemployment, a health care plan that the CBO says is unsustainable.
Liberals get pissed at shit like this.
Liberal rulebook:
Make sure we don't talk about our policies.
"“We should take a page out of her playbook and take a 9-iron and smash the window out of big government in this country,” he urged.
The overall strangeness of this thought aside, consider the timing. An angry man had just smashed his airplane into an I.R.S. office in Austin, Tex., killing one federal employee, injuring others and breaking quite a few windows. Does this seem like the very best time to be encouraging people to assault government property? Pawlenty’s defenders will undoubtedly say that he did not want his listeners to literally grab a golf club and hit something. But it is my experience that many Americans do not totally understand the concept of a metaphor."
Another star of the conservative conference, Scott Brown, was worse. When the new senator from Massachusetts was asked on Fox News about the I.R.S. office attack, he appeared to embrace the possibility that the pilot of the plane might have been one of his followers.
“And I don’t know if it’s related, but I can just sense, not only in my election but since being here in Washington, people are frustrated,” he said. “They want transparency.”
Collins
Maybe it's time for holding some con lickers accountable. What about water boarding to get the truth out of them?
Ray Gun:
Joe Stack was not "rambling about Communism".
Stack only made one reference to Communism, at the very end of his suicide note, and this is what he said:
"The Communist Creed: From each according to his ability, to each according to his need.
The Capitalist Creed: From each according to his gullibility, to each according to his greed."
That doesn't sound to me like he is praising Communism. He is saying that, whatever Communism is -- Capitalism is worse.
He isn't saying anything good or bad about Communism. He is taking the "Communist Creed"
and turning that around to blast the current Capitalist system. He is saying that our system is based upon the greedy stealing from the gullible.
The major difference between the two; Hassan and Stack: Hassan had contact with Al-Qaida, and identified with Al-Quaida (he even had it on his business card) and stack did not. Stack was an unbalanced guy who acted on his own and did not identify with any group. Now, if you WANT to read more into his note than is there, you can---anybody can, but for me, the last 2 paragraphs say it all.
The Marx slogan, and the mockery of Capitalism at the very end, would tell me he was left leaning.
More likely, he was a small businessman who spent all his life playing by the rules of capitalism, and he finally got destroyed by the system and became disgusted with the system and with his life.
"Stack was not trying to intimidate or coerce this country or civilian population, he was fed up and he reacted to perceived injustices to himself in an extremely violent manner."---DemocraticUnderground.com
He did not identify with either group. He was confused. You spin your wheels when you try to make sense of the rantings of a madman. Next you'll want to examine the collective works of Charlie Manson!
I totally agree with you CJP. I don't think he was referring to communism in a favorable light. As I don't think Jesus was telling us through his one line "The poor you will always have with you" to ignore the poor. I think its just more con lickers taking phrases out of context to meet their goal of the moment.
Case, according to Collins, even your beloved Scott Brown, thought he might of been one of his.
And I have seen posts online, quoting the other licker icon, Beck, trying to distance himself saying he is not advocating violence. I assume its true, that he said it.
Having had my own very serious problems with the IRS in the past, I can relate to the frustration, however I never once thought of killing people and/or myself as a viable solution.
He is correct about one thing. The tax code is too complicated and we should move to a flat tax. The current code is grossly unfair. If you can afford alot of loopholes and shelters, you do better than the average person who cannot. The IRS is a massive and scary arm of the government and can use all forms of intimidation at their disposal.
RayGun said...
"“We should take a page out of her playbook and take a 9-iron and smash the window out of big government in this country,” he urged
Oh great...now we can't use metaphors....poor libs. English is a great language libs. We often use metaphors in communicating a point instead of real life.
You know...like "Hope and Change".
Like, I 'Hope' unemployment finally comes down before they 'Change' this administration.
I'm thinking Obama used it as a metaphor because it sure as hell ain't real life.
RayGun said...
And I have seen posts online, quoting the other licker icon, Beck, trying to distance himself saying he is not advocating violence. I assume its true, that he said it.
Notice the last line. RayGun often ASSumes.
lol
You know...like "Hope and Change".
Like, I 'Hope' unemployment finally comes down before they 'Change' this administration.---HOTR
That is the BEST line I have heard all week! LMAO!
"But it is my experience that many Americans do not totally understand the concept of a metaphor." Collins
Thanks for proving the point.
What makes you think that he is mocking in the Marx and Capitalist quote and statement? Arent you doing more reading into this than you probably should?
BTW-Scott Brown is not a TeaParty guy. He is a fiscal conservative and a Social Liberal. Not a conservative.
And who cares about all of this? I don't understand why you are putting all of this energy into this one crazy guy. Aren't you kinda trying to split hairs? It all seems desparate to me
"He is a fiscal conservative and a Social Liberal. Not a conservative."
You guys are all the same. Libertarian==Repuglican==Conservative==Con==TeaBagger==Licker.
And Libertarians might be the easiest to live with as they don't like telling people what to do.
"It all seems desparate to me"
It should be a wake up call Case, as some whackos seem to be listening and taking to heart some of the licker group mentality.
You think bringing guns to licker rallys with signs saying water the tree of liberty with blood goes unnoticed in what is really being said? Don't the lickers understand what even they themselves seem to be saying?
RayGun said...
You guys are all the same. Libertarian==Repuglican==Conservative==Con==TeaBagger==Licker.
Is that another ASSumption?
lol
RayGun said...
You think bringing guns to licker rallys with signs saying water the tree of liberty with blood goes unnoticed in what is really being said? Don't the lickers understand what even they themselves seem to be saying?
Must be another ASSumption because tea parties haven't had many arrests at their functions.
Now you get some liberals together and you got police working overtime.
BACK FROM THE DEAD: DEMS VOW TO RAHM-THROUGH HEALTHCARE
So why does Obama want to sit with the Republicans on Health Care?
Another pathetic lie about partisanship.
RayGun said...
"But it is my experience that many Americans do not totally understand the concept of a metaphor." Collins
Thanks for proving the point.
--------------------------------
met·a·phor /ˈmÉ›təˌfÉ”r, -fÉ™r/ Show Spelled[met-uh-fawr, -fer] Show IPA
–noun
1.a figure of speech in which a term or phrase is applied to something to which it is not literally applicable in order to suggest a resemblance
---------------------------------
You're right RG. "Hope and Change" isn't a metaphor...
It's another outright lie.
Ron Paul, the heir apparent of the licker coalition, apparently is as backwoods sophisticated as the other lickers as going to his site produced
"Error establishing a database connection"
at least six times.
Why do you lickers like ordinary unsophisticated people so much? As friends fine, but as leaders it can cause problems as we have seen with w. Is there any such thing as an intellectual licker? That's an oxymoron, isn't it?
"Error establishing a database connection"
--RG
That is what you have based this latest opinion on? Very thin, RG. Very thin.
Why not go to Air America, Rg? Oh. I forgot. There is no AirAmerica. No one wanted to listen to those sophisticated intellectuals!
"That is what you have based this latest opinion on? Very thin, RG. Very thin."
Another incompetent con, Ron Pauls, web site is finally working. A quick perusal and he's what I suspected, just another con, singing the same con song. Global warming, abortion on and on, the same song. The war on drugs initially seemed to offer hope, until he said churches and family etc needs to solve the drug problem, not the feds. You cons are all the same.
A real libertarian, I might consider. Right now the crazy right's best choice is Romney. Why do all the con candidates love God, love money, and hate the poor so much? Crazy but true.
"A real libertarian, I might consider"---RG
Poor RG. You have so little understanding of what a real libertarian is...Ron Paul is a real libertarian. Libertarians believe in less federal government. A strict constitutionalist.
The Federal Government does not solve problems. If they did, we wouldn't have any problems by now, would we? With the amount of money thrown at schools and education, we would have kids that all were doing well. Instead, we have a high drop out rate, and low test scores, and violence. There would be no poverty, or unemployment, or government programs that are flat broke!
You just don't get it. Expanding the government is not the answer.
"a real libertarian is"
I understand talk is cheap. I understand that once you detail where you will cut government, you won't get elected. So you cons will just do what all the cons before you have done. Lie. Then once you lie your way into office you'll borrow money to pay for tax cuts, and preferabley for the rich. Same ol song.
Not anything more or less than what you guys do. That is your admission, not mine. (you said it yourself---Obama did it)
hey, CJP---the comments are slowing down, You need to fix this as appearantly these latest posts are either not comment inspiring or you guys are giving up. Even RG is not saying much.
Hey RG---I am not going to work tomorrow. Too much wine tonight with friends...You aren't saying much. What's up?
Today's headlines....
Democrats worried about Obama track record...
PA governor wants White House to revamp strategy...
Obama's 'Chicago mafia' blamed for paralysis...
Climate scientists withdraw claims of rising sea levels...
Governors: Bad economies in states to worsen...
________________________________
Not a good morning for the brown nosers.
Lieing about belief in an imaginary being is an age old tradition.
Not saying much.
--
Busy, busy, busy..
Hangover.
--
Try Vodka. I can get super plastered and the next day feel fine. If I throw a measly bottle of wine in the mix I feel like crap. Two glasses of wine is my max per day, any more is not good. Vodka, I can pretty much drink what I want and all is fine the next day. Vodka has very few distillation impurities, relatively speaking, so very little in the way of hangovers.
HOOTAIR, your headlines appear absent from the real news.
And I really take CNN polls with a grain of salt as they had one showing something like 80 percent believe Iran has nuclear weapons. I guess the figures don't lie, they just show how stupid the public is.
Just like 75 percent of the public still thinks Iraq had something to do with 9/11.
"Why are Republicans reluctant to sit down and talk? Because they would then be forced to put up or shut up. Since they’re adamantly opposed to reducing the deficit with tax increases, they would have to explain what spending they want to cut. And guess what? After three decades of preparing the ground for this moment, they’re still not willing to do that. "
"So now the de facto strategy is to oppose any responsible action until we are in the midst of a fiscal catastrophe. You read it here first."
Krugman
Is Krugman reading your Blog CJP, this was all pretty much said before his article in the times today? Or now its so obvious, even the blind can see it, like Case and HOTAIR.
I forgot the :-) in the above post.
'Doomsday' tax increases could come to Illinois...
Everything is going according to plan. Democrats love to mimic failure.
RayGun said...
HOOTAIR, your headlines appear absent from the real news.
oh gee RG.
You didn't see this news.
What a surprise........lol
RayGun said...
"Why are Republicans reluctant to sit down and talk?
Why should they? Obama already has completed his health care plan.
The question is...
Why does Obama want to sit with the republicans when he has the health care plan that he wants?
Answer:
So he can claim he is bipartisan (even though he won't take any suggestions) and to get a photo op.
White House Endorses Sen. Landrieu's 'Louisiana Purchase'...
Oh yeah...this is fair for all the American people....
"George W. Bush used reconciliation to enact his giant tax cut bill in 2003 (he garnered only 50 votes for it in the Senate, forcing Vice President Cheney to cast the deciding vote). Six years before that, Bill Clinton rounded up 51 votes to enact the Children's Health Insurance Program (CHIP), the largest expansion of taxpayer-funded health insurance coverage for children in the U.S. since Medicaid began in the 1960s. Through reconciliation, we also got Medicare Advantage. Also through reconciliation came the COBRA act, which gives Americans a bit of healthcare protection after they lose a job ("reconciliaton is the "R" in the COBRA acronym.) These were all big, important pieces of legislation, and all were enacted by 51 votes in the Senate."
Good Points
The time is now, use reconciliation to pass the bill.
Obama Health Care Plan's Price Tag Jumps to $950 Billion...
Good thing we won't have to pay this back...
The time is now, use reconciliation to pass the bill.
I have no problem if the dems use it. They have every right.
Now let's see if the dems have the balls.
What is funny is that if they don't, somehow they'll blame the republicans.
"Good thing we won't have to pay this back..."
We can take it from the cons favorite tool for telling people what to do, the military.
RayGun said...
"Good thing we won't have to pay this back..."
We can take it from the cons favorite tool for telling people what to do, the military.
It get boring answering stupidity.
"Now let's see if the dems have the balls."
I actually agree with HOOT on this one. The dems are a whimpy bunch.
I think they should put the public option back in, after seeing if they have the votes, and pass it.
Be back later brown noser.
"while so many were preoccupied by Clinton’s “distinguishing characteristic,” Osama bin Laden was most likely preoccupied with attacking the United States."
"Indeed, the most consequential result of both Clinton’s behavior and the Starr investigation was the election of George W. Bush. Clinton’s would-be successor, Vice President Al Gore, was embarrassed to campaign alongside Clinton, especially in the Bible Belt, and ended up losing states where Clinton was still popular."
Book Review
We all know cons disdain for reading, for knowledge, for intellectual progress, so any book reference is a complete waste. But this book once again confirms my belief that He has caused most of our current problems today. If the bible thumping cons were not so obsessed with Clintons BJ, Gore would of been elected and this would be a different world. Thanks thumpers for the world you have wrought. Why not go out and campaign for another nut con licker and finish the US off?
"“It is the first step in creating jobs, not only for the people of Massachusetts but for the people of the country,” said Mr. Brown, who said he intended to pursue other proposals such as an across-the-board cut in payroll taxes."
Brown, looks like another GD simple con. Cut taxes. How did that last tax cut thingey work for you al? Only 2 percent of you even noticed you received a tax cut. Cons are automatons. Simple, simple robots.
RayGun said...
"while so many were preoccupied by Clinton’s “distinguishing characteristic,” Osama bin Laden was most likely preoccupied with attacking the United States."
"Indeed, the most consequential result of both Clinton’s behavior and the Starr investigation was the election of George W. Bush. Clinton’s would-be successor, Vice President Al Gore, was embarrassed to campaign alongside Clinton, especially in the Bible Belt, and ended up losing states where Clinton was still popular."
There is a moral to this story.
DON'T LIE to the grand jury no matter HOW TRIVIAL YOU THINK IT IS.
Problem solved.
RayGun said...
Brown, looks like another GD simple con. Cut taxes. How did that last tax cut thingey work for you al?
Worked out great! Unemployment was ALOT LOWER then the miserable 10% it is now.
Here's something funny!
I remember when Nancy Pelosi criticized Bush when only 200,000 jobs were created in one month.
OOOOOOOOOoooooooopppppppppsssss!!!
Isn't it strange that companies use their money to hire people.
Isn't it even more strange that when they are taxed heavily they don't hire people. Weird.....
hispanicontheright said...
Isn't it strange that companies use their money to hire people.
Isn't it even more strange that when they are taxed heavily they don't hire people. Weird.....
RayGun should know what I mean since he is a small business man.
Tell us about your tax cuts RG.
RayGun said...
Only 2 percent of you even noticed you received a tax cut.
That's because probably only 2 percent bought a house or car.
"Cheney has had four heart attacks, starting when he was 37. He has had quadruple bypass surgery and two artery-clearing angioplasties. "
I dont think God likes Cheney.
RayGun said...
"Cheney has had four heart attacks, starting when he was 37. He has had quadruple bypass surgery and two artery-clearing angioplasties. "
I dont think God likes Cheney.
That's alright. He gave him enough time to let us know that Obama is a one term president.
"A deal with the Devil, pact with the Devil, or Faustian bargain"
"– "The devil's contract."
"According to traditional Christian belief in witchcraft, the pact is between a person and Satan or any other demon (or demons); the person offers his or her soul in exchange for diabolical favors. Those favors vary by the tale, but tend to include youth, knowledge, wealth, or power. "
Sounds like Cheney to me.
GD, simple cons, if you understood anything... But you understand so little.
RayGun should know what I mean since he is a small business man.
Tell us about your tax cuts RG.
Did you see this RG? Please tell us what we don't seem to know.
"RayGun should know what I mean since he is a small business man.
Tell us about your tax cuts RG."
For Hoot Ninny:
As far as I know, and according to my CPA, and having consulted with my lawyer(s) on various occasions, I pay/paid owe 0 fed taxes. So how can Obama cut my taxes?
As far as I know, my major client, a multi million dollar a year corp, also pays the same amount as I do. 0.
RayGun said...
As far as I know, my major client, a multi million dollar a year corp, also pays the same amount as I do. 0.
LMAO
'Doomsday' tax increases could come to Illinois...
I feel sorry for the businesses in Chicago.
Hey libs, according to your logic, there should be a lot of jobs created in Illinois.
Dam, that sounds stupid. I wonder why libs don't see that.
HOOT ninny, you simpleton, hire a CPA, hire a lawyer(s), follow the rules, you will get ahead.
'Doomsday' tax increases could come to Illinois...
RayGun, this is great for the lucky people in Chicago.
According to the dems, this is the best thing that could happen to them.
Let's see how many jobs that will create. lol
RayGun said...
HOOT ninny, you simpleton, hire a CPA, hire a lawyer(s), follow the rules, you will get ahead.
That's good. We can just screw the poor.
If you have enough to hire CPA and lawyer then you have nothing to worry about.
Very considerate of the dems.
I agree HOOT Ninny, state taxes should be cut. I dont want to pay for kids schooling,etc
"If you have enough to hire CPA and lawyer then you have nothing to worry about."
It's not that much. Maybe 500 per month for all.
RayGun said...
"If you have enough to hire CPA and lawyer then you have nothing to worry about."
It's not that much. Maybe 500 per month for all.
Yes, poor people. For $500 a month, you too can have nothing to worry about.
I know HOOT, this all seems so complicated, but experts can figure it out for you in seconds.
You think the people and businesses in Chicago are worried?
Hell Yeah....
RayGun said...
I know HOOT, this all seems so complicated, but experts can figure it out for you in seconds.
I don't think they're going to help the businesses and people of Chicago. Do you?
"Yes, poor people. For $500 a month, you too can have nothing to worry about. "
--
HOOT, are you worried? Is Obama going to crack down on you? If you wern't excessively flagrant with the regulations, you probably have little to worry about.
I personally am religious about the regulations.
RayGun said...
I personally am religious about the regulations.
Is that why Chicago is in the toilet? Because of regulations?
Or is it because democrats (big surprise) are running the show?
I pick the latter.
HOOT, you Ninny, most states are in the hole.
New times are a comin...
RayGun said...
HOOT, you Ninny, most states are in the hole.
New times are a comin...
Democrat led states wish they were only in the hole. Democrat states are in the shitter.
Cali, New York, New Jersey (NJ smart to elect republican)
Yes HOOT Ninny, the only states doing well are Alaska and Texass (I am guessing, plus what???). HOOT, the middle east is doing ok also. Relatively speaking. Why HOOT? Did God shed HIS grace on only the areas with mineral (oil etc) wealth? Isn't it funny, that only the areas with mineral wealth are the ones prospering???
RayGun said...
Yes HOOT Ninny, the only states doing well are Alaska and Texass (I am guessing, plus what???). HOOT, the middle east is doing ok also. Relatively speaking. Why HOOT? Did God shed HIS grace on only the areas with mineral (oil etc) wealth? Isn't it funny, that only the areas with mineral wealth are the ones prospering???
Attention people:
This is how you know when a brown noser has no point to make.
Will not address or answer why dem states are in the shitter.
All he can say is blah, blah, blah
LMAO
RayGun said...
blah blah blah blah
lol
HOOT, simpleton, please give me a list of states supposedly doing well.
RayGun said...
HOOT, simpleton, please give me a list of states supposedly doing well.
I can name states doing really really shitty.
Cali, NJ, NY
Forgot Illinois.
These states where doing shitty before this financial mess.
Why is that RG?
Cali, NJ, NY
None have natural resources. I have lived in NJ (2 yrs), TX (3 yrs), AK (7 yrs) and been to CA and IL. For what its worth.
HOOT Ninny, the states you speaketh of having so little worth, have little resources also (oil,etc)..
Hey HOOT Nanny, why is the middle east, and so many other resource wealthy regions, weathering this economic storm so well???
RayGun said...
HOOT Ninny, the states you speaketh of having so little worth, have little resources also (oil,etc)..
Is that statement a joke? These states have collected more taxes than the entire country and they're still broke.
Has nothing to do with resources. Everything to do with politicians who keep taxing and spending.
ex.
If you collect $5 and spend $20 they will be a problem. A problem you can hide for a while but will eventually come to the surface.
If you collect $5 and spend $20 they will be a problem. A problem you can hide for a while but will eventually come to the surface.
A democrat will say that we need to raise taxes to cover this. At some point this is true. The problem is that as soon as they raise taxes they find something else to spend on.
So they collect $20 but then spend $50.
HOOT Ninny, Ak and Tx are broke?
RayGun said...
HOOT Ninny, Ak and Tx are broke?
Not as broke as where Obama or Pelosi or Corzine rules or ruled.
HOOT Ninny, the only reason TX and Ak and, the middle east have any relevance, is because of....
OIL..
Cali
nj
nevada
rhode island
arizona
NY
delaware
florida
DC
alabama
mass
minn
virgina
ill
maryland
The highest deficits. All but a few voted for Obama.
The other republicans must be primaried and voted out.
RayGun said...
HOOT Ninny, the only reason TX and Ak and, the middle east have any relevance, is because of....
OIL..
Thanks RG. That really adds to the discussion.
"Cali
nj
nevada
rhode island
arizona
NY
delaware
florida
DC
alabama
mass
minn
virgina
ill
maryland"
HOOT NInny, none of those states have oil revenue. Dont you get that w and Palin seemingly have the answers... But they don't because their states are poor examples.
RayGun said...
HOOT NInny, none of those states have oil revenue. Dont you get that w and Palin seemingly have the answers... But they don't because their states are poor examples.
They all have democrat leaders. See the trend.
"They all have democrat leaders. See the trend. "
HOOT, I lived in Tx and Ak, both, for a few years.
You cons get so little... But you all get HIM.
JFC.
RayGun said....
HOOT, I lived in Tx and Ak, both, for a few years.
Good for you. It would have been worse if you lived in:
Cali
nj
nevada
rhode island
arizona
NY
delaware
florida
DC
alabama
mass
minn
virgina
ill
maryland
Good night RG. You have no way of rationalizing the high deficits democrats leave behind.
I'm bored with you. Maybe CJP will jump in tomorrow.
"I'm bored with you. Maybe CJP will jump in tomorrow."
Yes HOOT I agree, I am bored with you, and I also want a moderator.
Henceforth, and soon to be announced, I am creating my own blog...
Since there's nothing new happening around here lately, here are some headlines.
Consumer Confidence Falls to 10-Month Low...
Mass layoffs edge up...
San Fran expected to cut 1,000 school employees...
-Great, sounds like we need another stimulus. Right libs?
_________________________________
Canadian Premier on US health procedure: 'This was my heart, my choice and my health'...
-Is there really a need to comment on the public option?
Canadian Premier wants no part of it. lol
__________________________________
Romney backs former rival McCain for re-election...
-Mitt and John, don't let the door hit you on the ass.
__________________________________
Dems Cautiously Embrace Obama Health Plan...
Poll: Americans Angry with D.C. Politics
-Liberal cannot handle running the country.
http://www.google.com/hostednews/canadianpress/article/ALeqM5h0QC7bditrEb3wYz_6_b-gsGGDxA
Anon2 was absolutely right about Canadian health care and waiting.
This gives new meaning to Obama Brown Nosers who don't care how much crap they have on their nose as long as they agree with the King.
Here's a few paragraphs. You can read the rest at above link.
---------------------------------
An unapologetic Danny Williams says he was aware his trip to the United States for heart surgery earlier this month would spark outcry, but he concluded his personal health trumped any public fallout over the controversial decision.
In an interview with The Canadian Press, Williams said he went to Miami to have a "minimally invasive" surgery for an ailment first detected nearly a year ago, based on the advice of his doctors.
"This was my heart, my choice and my health," Williams said late Monday from his condominium in Sarasota, Fla.
"I did not sign away my right to get the best possible health care for myself when I entered politics."
The 60-year-old Williams said doctors detected a heart murmur last spring and told him that one of his heart valves wasn't closing properly, creating a leakage.
He said he was told at the time that the problem was "moderate" and that he should come back for a checkup in six months.
Eight months later, in December, his doctors told him the problem had become severe and urged him to get his valve repaired immediately or risk heart failure, he said.
His doctors in Canada presented him with two options - a full or partial sternotomy, both of which would've required breaking bones, he said.
As far as I know, my major client, a multi million dollar a year corp, also pays the same amount as I do. 0.--Rg
That's great RG. You and your client don't pay taxes, but you think that it is okay to raise them for other people!
Sweet Cakes, where have you been? HOOT has been driving me crazy.
Case, as far as I know most small businesses don't pay anything.
Whos raising taxes? Obama is cutting taxes. He's doing the same thing as the cons. Cut taxes and borrow money. Why werent u bitching when w and RayGun and w the wiser were doing the same?
RayGun said...
Sweet Cakes, where have you been? HOOT has been driving me crazy.
Admit it, it's boring without me.
RayGun said...
Case, as far as I know most small businesses don't pay anything.
LOL
Case is depressed again.
Don't pick on me RG.
Case, HOOT depresses us all. Just ignore him.
Comon Case, you can talk now, the HOOT is in bed.
RayGun said...
Comon Case, you can talk now, the HOOT is in bed.
lol
I feel so welcomed here.
I welcome you here, HOTR! Your points and comments are priceless!
I am not depressed, I am just frustrated. I have never seen people so closed minded in my life.
Todays article.
The First Tea-Party Terrorist?
This idiot seems to think that we shouldn't go after home grown teabagging terrorists. I say, lets show those soccer moms that dems are tough on terrorism, no matter where we find it. And lets bring back water boarding to hear straight answers from our terrorists. You never know what they are up to.
"I say, lets show those soccer moms that dems are tough on terrorism, no matter where we find it."---RG
You cannot give me one example of TeaParty Terrorism. I read this article and it is still an opinion and not sufficient evidence that this lunatic was involved in the movement. The simple fact that his rantings (in his note) swayed from one side of the spectrum to the other (far left and right) only prove to me that he was confused. These are rantings of a very disturbed man.
But you agree Case, if the teabaggers start terrorist activities, we need to prosecute them?
Any terrorist should be prosecuted whether he/her be conservative, liberal or in the middle.
Thanks for the kind words Casey :)
Casey said...
You cannot give me one example of TeaParty Terrorism
You're right Casey, he can't. Now you get some libs together and you have to pay the cops overtime.
VIDEO FLASHBACK: Obama & Dems in 2005: 51 Vote 'Nuclear Option' Is 'Arrogant' Power Grab Against the Founder's Intent... ... MORE... MORE
http://www.breitbart.tv/obama-dems-in-2005-51-vote-nuclear-option-is-arrogant-power-grab-against-the-founders-intent/
hahaha. Brown nosers are so full of crap it's not even funny.
Janet Napolitano came out today stating that the Ft Hood shooting was "an act of terrorism" Does it frustrate you guys to be so wrong, of much of the time? You all rush to defend the position of your beloved Administration, then the Administration changes it's stance and leaves you guys flapping your jaws!
And yes, any act of terrorism should be punished. However you need to give one example of the TeaParty committing terrorism. I do agree with HOTR, we have seen MANY acts of terrorism on the Left. And riots, etc
THE WORST: 10% SAY CONGRESS DOING GOOD JOB...
Must be the cons fault. lol
I agree CC, we must crack down on terrorists, whether they are foreign born or native born.
So, if teabaggers want to fly planes into buildings, because they hate taxes and the government with such venom, then they are terrorists, we must all agree on that simple fact.
And if teabaggers continue to read and interpret the constitution with no regard for the courts interpretation, and said non judicial interpretation recommends violence, and then action is taken to support violence, then they are terrorists. Agreed?
"And if teabaggers continue to read and interpret the constitution with no regard for the courts interpretation, and said non judicial interpretation recommends violence, and then action is taken to support violence, then they are terrorists. Agreed?"---Rg
WTF? When has that happened? But yes, if there is an act of terrorism within the organization, then the person commiting that act needs to be tried as a terrorist.
Still have not tied the Stack guy to the TeaParty Movement. Just opinion. Need to show us that he was an active member or attendee. That hasn't happened.
CC, if you can't see that Stacks hatred of government and especially the IRS, and his supposed love of freedom, doesn't sound like a teabagger nut, then...
But he was for Universal Healthcare, and other stuff from your side of the fence as well. (can't count the hatred of the IRS---everyone hates them) That doesn't sound too TeaBaggie to me....
Shamu killed someone today. Maybe you can tie that one to the Movement too. :)
Everyone is for universal health care, except tax haters and government will fk it up believers.
Comon CC, you guys on this one, whether he's officially a teabagger or not, his ideals are yours. ie; Anti government, anti taxes, I own freedom and I want to be free. Thats a teabagger, aka licker, aka con.
"Everyone is for universal health care, except tax haters and government will fk it up believers"
Not true. Not AT ALL
And unless you can tie him to the movement, you can't say that he is one. If he was doing this as a grand standing stance, I would think that he would have mentioned that in his note.
RayGun said...
Everyone is for universal health care, except tax haters and government will fk it up believers.
Comon CC, you guys on this one, whether he's officially a teabagger or not, his ideals are yours.
Yeah he was anti-Bush too..........
OOOOOOOOoooooooooooopppppppppssss
Anti-Bush.....just like RayGun.
What a coincidence that RG is a super Brown Nosing lib.
lol
RayGun said...
Everyone is for universal health care
?????????????? What the hell is this guy reading???
Can someone show RG some recent polls?
"the movement, you can't say that he is one"
Comon CC, the article, on the NYTimes, today, he is a writer. He gave the pros and cons, and the cons lost. His logic hit the nail on thy head.
He may not be an official member, are you?
THE WORST: 10% SAY CONGRESS DOING GOOD JOB...
Probably because the liberal want to jam universal health care down the throats of the majority of the people who don't want it.
Is RG ignoring this:
http://www.google.com/hostednews/canadianpress/article/ALeqM5h0QC7bditrEb3wYz_6_b-gsGGDxA
Anon2 was absolutely right about Canadian health care and waiting.
This gives new meaning to Obama Brown Nosers who don't care how much crap they have on their nose as long as they agree with the King.
Here's a few paragraphs. You can read the rest at above link.
---------------------------------
An unapologetic Danny Williams says he was aware his trip to the United States for heart surgery earlier this month would spark outcry, but he concluded his personal health trumped any public fallout over the controversial decision.
In an interview with The Canadian Press, Williams said he went to Miami to have a "minimally invasive" surgery for an ailment first detected nearly a year ago, based on the advice of his doctors.
"This was my heart, my choice and my health," Williams said late Monday from his condominium in Sarasota, Fla.
"I did not sign away my right to get the best possible health care for myself when I entered politics."
The 60-year-old Williams said doctors detected a heart murmur last spring and told him that one of his heart valves wasn't closing properly, creating a leakage.
He said he was told at the time that the problem was "moderate" and that he should come back for a checkup in six months.
Eight months later, in December, his doctors told him the problem had become severe and urged him to get his valve repaired immediately or risk heart failure, he said.
His doctors in Canada presented him with two options - a full or partial sternotomy, both of which would've required breaking bones, he said.
I know. Must not have been in the Huffington Post lately.
I want a comment on Napolitano and her comment (finally)that the Ft Hood shooter was a terrorist. Isn't that another one of her now famous about faces?
Anti-Bush RG, you don't have a pilot's license do you?
lol
Hey. One thing that I really need to know, and maybe you guys can help me out here...Valerie Jarret. Has someone given her a "swirly" or is that her real hairstyle? :)
Casey said...
I know. Must not have been in the Huffington Post lately.
I want a comment on Napolitano and her comment (finally)that the Ft Hood shooter was a terrorist. Isn't that another one of her now famous about faces?
Hey Napolitano:
NO SHIT SHERLOCK!!!
Libs finally realize what the whole world realized as soon as it happened.
Where's CJP thread on that? He was dying for FOX to call Stack a terrorist and now he has his thumb up his ass.
lol
HOOT, you NINNY,
http://www.google.com/hostednews/canadianpress/article/ALeqM5h0QC7bditrEb3wYz_6_b-gsGGDxA
Not worth commenting on. I read it, and if thats your logic then ...
RayGun said...
HOOT, you NINNY,
http://www.google.com/hostednews/canadianpress/article/ALeqM5h0QC7bditrEb3wYz_6_b-gsGGDxA
Not worth commenting on. I read it, and if thats your logic then ...
No need to comment RG.
We know that you're such a Brown Noser that you would gladly wait and chance dropping dead to please your god Obama. Smart people like the Canadian enjoy the health care the USA has right now.
RayGun said...
Not worth commenting on. I read it, and if thats your logic then ...
Not my logic you "useful idiot".
It's from a guy who worried that he would not survive universal health care.
It's a good thing for the Canadian that we don't have universal health care or he would be SOL.
Comon Case, plz read HOOT NINNYs link.
THE WORST: 10% SAY CONGRESS DOING GOOD JOB...
You know what's funny?
Libs don't even like what these libs are doing?
lol
CC, been on Kodiak Island (remotely, flown in with private plane, 3+ times.) Killer whales ... And lots of big bears. I have a record book Brown Bear, Boone and Crockett.
I have killed a lot. Animals.
And we are all the same.
Obama Rejects Cries of 'Socialism'...
If it walks like a duck...
squawks like a duck...
smells like a duck...
It's probably a f'ing duck!!!
lol
RayGun said...
CC, been on Kodiak Island (remotely, flown in with private plane, 3+ times.) Killer whales ... And lots of big bears. I have a record book Brown Bear, Boone and Crockett.
I have killed a lot. Animals.
And we are all the same.
Sounds pretty cool.
RayGun, when are you going to start your blog?
CJP doesn't have his heart in this one.
I agree hoot, CJP is busy with other things apparently. Working on it. spent 10 minutes today. Have a blog name already. Registered it. "RayGun is Dead"
Oh then you won't have the time to be here anymore, RG. Who will I argue with?
Hey, Joe had a private plane... JFC
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/littlegeek-styrer-max/article1479162/
Excerpt:
Newfoundland Premier Danny Williams inadvertently “bad mouthed” Canada's health-care system by travelling to Florida to have his heart repaired, according to a prominent cardiac surgeon who says he would have gladly performed the surgery himself.
“The fact that these procedures are available in Canada and they're done with individuals who are very well trained and have had good results definitely bad mouths the health-care system,” said Bob Kiaii, director of minimally invasive cardiac surgery and robotics at London Health Sciences Centre.
“And it puts a really bad reputation to the health care we're now providing.”
Dr. Kiaii said he could understand if Mr. Williams went to the United States for a procedure not offered here.
How Mr. Williams came to put his heart in the hands of Joseph Lamelas, a highly skilled minimally invasive surgeon in Miami, HAS MORE TO DO WITH HIS HIGH SOCIETAL STATUS."
http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20100224/williams_cardiologists_100224/20100224?hub=Canada
"Williams' surgery available in Canada: cardiologists
Date: Wednesday Feb. 24, 2010 10:32 PM ET
Canadian cardiologists say they perform the exact surgery that Newfoundland Premier Danny Williams underwent in Florida, despite his assertion that it was not available in Canada.
In an interview with NTV News that aired Monday, Williams said his doctor recommended he seek treatment in the U.S. for a leaky heart valve.
He ultimately underwent the mitral valve surgery at Mount Sinai Medical Center in Miami on Feb. 4.
"The surgery that I eventually got…was not offered to me in Canada," Williams claimed Monday.
CTV News spoke to four heart specialists who say the minimally invasive procedure is not available in Newfoundland, but is widely offered in other provinces.
"The public needs to know you don't need to (travel)," said Dr. Bob Kiaii of London Health Sciences Centre in Ontario.
"That procedure can also be done in your own country."
The doctors say Williams had the right to seek treatment in the U.S., but shouldn't claim the surgery cannot be done in Canada.
Dr. Hugues Jeanmart of the Montreal Heart Institute said doctors there perform the surgery "on a regular basis with excellent clinical results."
Williams has been a champion of public Canadian health care. But his decision to travel south of the border to be treated nearly three weeks ago sparked outrage among many Canadians, and LED SOME AMERICANS TO USE IT AS EVIDENCE THAT PUBLIC HEALTH CARE IS A POOR CHOICE FOR THEIR COUNTRY.
Williams said despite his decision to have the procedure done in Florida, he has "the utmost confidence in our health care system."
He said he is "surprised by the magnitude" of the backlash surrounding his seeking surgery in the U.S., but insists he made the right decision.
"It's my health and it's my choice," he said Monday.
"At that point in time (criticism) was really the least of my concerns. I was focused on what I had to get done. I was focused on having the surgery, healing, recovering and getting back to work."
Case, did you see HOOTs link that he thinks proves the Canadian health care system sucks? How can I argue with you cons when you use logic like that?
Anon2 said...
http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20100224/williams_cardiologists_100224/20100224?hub=Canada
"Williams' surgery available in Canada: cardiologists
Of course it's available.
Who the hell said it's not? (another stupid ass brown nosing tactic)
It's available all over the world.
THE PROBLEM IS YOU HAVE TO WAIT FOR IT.
He had a heart condition and they told him to wait.
Heart valve problems you dumb brown nosers. Sounds pretty serious and they told him to wait.
He waited like they told him to and 8 months later they said it would serious.
Well, no shit!!
After he did what they said it GOT WORSE!
That's the logic RayGun! What the fuck is it that you don't understand.
The logic is simple. Canadian universal health care did not help this man. IT MADE THE PROBLEM WORSE!!
RG and Anon2 have their brown noses so far up Obama's ass that they think waiting for care is a good thing.
Anon2 I really hope you don't get sick because you're screwed.
RG I'm glad you're in the states because if you do get sick you can get IMMEDIATE CARE!
STUPID ASS BROWN NOSERS DEFENDING THE INDEFENSABLE.
HOOT has typical con traits, but they are all magnified. Excitability, illogic, taking items out of context and building on that while ignoring the big picture, etc. Glad he doesn't own any guns and a religious zealot at the same time :-)
Please RG. Stop the generalizations and tell me where I'm wrong.
He waited the 6 months like the doctors said and it got worse.
Please tell me where I'm wrong.
Please tell me by making an actual point.
"He waited the 6 months like the doctors said and it got worse."
What difference does it make that the doctors told him to wait 6 months? They said wait 6 months (not because care was unavailable) and you extrapolated on that tidbit, to mean the whole Canadian health care system sucks. The whole worlds health care system sucks.
Its like my bible analogy. "The poor will always be with us" and you nutty cons claim that proves God doesn't expect you give aid to the poor.
RayGun said...
"He waited the 6 months like the doctors said and it got worse."
What difference does it make that the doctors told him to wait 6 months?
??????
Are you serious? The man had a heart valve problem. We're not talking about something like arthritis.
_______________________________
RayGun said...
They said wait 6 months (not because care was unavailable)
He said himself:
"I would've been criticized if I had stayed in Canada and had been perceived as jumping a line or a wait list."
This confirms what Anon2 said. They-have-to-wait.
Even with heart conditions.
Please tell me what did I exploit?
"I would've been criticized if I had stayed in Canada and had been perceived as jumping a line or a wait list. ... I accept that. That's public life," he said.
"(But) this is not a unique phenomenon to me. This is something that happens with lots of families throughout this country, so I make no apologies for that."
Read that second paragraph. This is amazing.
He says "it happens with lots of families throughout the country, so I make no apologies for that"
This is what you want for Americans?
RG, I appreciate that we are having a real and sensible discussion.
Ok HOOT, using your logic, if a rich US citizen goes to Sweden for a special procedure, that proves the whole US health care system sucks.
JFC HOOT, that province only has 500k people.
HOOT Canada spends 1/3 as much on health care per person as we do.
He went because the surgery was minimally invasive. My mother had open heart a little while ago and the robotic and minimally invasive was just not available in Colorado Springs area.
And 8 or so years ago, I knew a few people who went to Canada for the vision correcting eye surgery, because that procedure Canada did better at the time. Does that mean the US health care system sucks?
He would of got in before he died, that is pretty much a fact.
Canadians on average live longer than we do HOOT as does many many other citizens around the world. If they all had to wait around for life giving surgery, wouldn't their life expectancy be shorter than ours?
He went because Florida had extreme experts in minimally invasive heart surgery.
RayGun said...
And 8 or so years ago, I knew a few people who went to Canada for the vision correcting eye surgery, because that procedure Canada did better at the time.
Eye surgery is not life threatening.
The man had a heart problem.
He himself put down the Canadian health care system. I know Anon2 is trying desperately to fix what he said but it doesn't change the fact that he said this:
"(But) this is not a unique phenomenon to me. This is something that happens with lots of families throughout this country, so I make no apologies for that."
That is a very telling statement.
That is from a man who is very connected is politics and knows what he is talking about.
I trust his statement above any politicians here in the US because he is living with universal health care.
----------------------------------
Canadians on average live longer than we do HOOT as does many many other citizens around the world. If they all had to wait around for life giving surgery, wouldn't their life expectancy be shorter than ours?
It would seem that they probably live a better lifestyle. I won't dispute that because America has always been the land of overindulgence.
I would be interested to see what the lifespan is for people who become ill in Canada.
example:
What is the lifespan for a woman who finds out she has breast cancer in Canada as opposed to a woman in the US.
RayGun said...
He would of got in before he died, that is pretty much a fact.
That my friend is definetly 'not' a fact. Doesn't mean it's not true but a bad heart unattended is always life threatening.
I have never heard of anyone in the US that had to wait to be treated for a heart condition.
I've had family who went for a checkup and was IMMEDIATELY sent to the hospital for stints.
Thanks for the discussion RG. It was good and very civil. Talk to you later.
"That my friend is definetly 'not' a fact."
It is a fact that Canadians are not dropping dead waiting around for medical care.
I would love Canada's health care at 1/3 the cost. I would then take another 1/3 a put it towards a premium care package, and pocket the final third. The final third that is now paying the US insurance companies.
RayGun said...
It is a fact that Canadians are not dropping dead waiting around for medical care.
Ok. That's as much a fact in the US as well.
I'll just take the Canadian's word that waiting could be (he said 'could be') a problem and that:
"(But) this is not a unique phenomenon to me.
THIS IS SOMETHING THAT HAPPENS WITH LOTS OF FAMILIES THROUGHOUT THIS COUNTRY,
so I make no apologies for that."
As a Canadian politician, he seems to know what he is talking about.
RayGun said...
I would love Canada's health care at 1/3 the cost.
I prefer immediate care as soon as I need it. That, to me, is worth the premiums.
"I prefer immediate care as soon as I need it. That, to me, is worth the premiums."
Once again your are applying con selective reading.
Again I said you can purchase another program to provide immediate care. Just like here, which I almost did, you can buy into a program where the doctors spend more than the 15 minutes with you, that the insurance pays for. It was around 1200 per year.
HOOT, you looking at a country that spends 1/3 as much as we do. All other countries spend half what we do.
"(But) this is not a unique phenomenon to me. This is something that happens with lots of families throughout this country, so I make no apologies for that."
And it's not even clear what "this" he is talking about.
HOOT, plz list the reasons you think he went to Florida rather than use his own Province care.
RayGun said...
HOOT, plz list the reasons you think he went to Florida rather than use his own Province care.
Why would I list why I think he went to Florida??
He told us.
Why would I put words in his mouth?
He said this:
"This was my heart, my choice and my health," Williams said late Monday from his condominium in Sarasota, Fla.
"I did not sign away my right to get the best possible health care for myself when I entered politics."
The universal health care doctors told him this:
He said he was told at the time that the problem was "moderate" and that he should come back for a checkup in six months.
Eight months later, in December, his doctors told him the problem had become severe and urged him to get his valve repaired immediately or risk heart failure, he said.
---------------------------------
He said the doctors told him to wait 6 months.
Then it became "severe"
----------------------------------
Those were his words.
I don't understand why you want my opinion of the reason he went to Florida when he is telling us.
HOOT, first of all, Canada has a population of around 33 million. Ours is approximately 10 times that. There fore we will have more specialists, specializing in cutting edge medicine.
He wanted minimally invasive treatment, which his province did not offer, or maybe was not immediately available, as they only have a population of 500,000.
His doctors offered to get him surgery, but they had to break bones.
It's very likely he owned the condo he was staying at in Florida and felt very comfortable there.
So HOOT, you use the obvious incongruity in the comparisons of our health care and a Canadian providence with a population of 500k, and show that as proof that universal health care sucks? And besides that fact, you seem to lump in what Obama and the Congress is trying to do with the concept of universal health care? Cons are really dishonest with their arguments. Death Panels, long waits, shortages, etc.
So HOOT, you use the obvious incongruity in the comparisons of our health care and a Canadian providence with a population of 500k, and show that as proof that universal health care sucks?
Never said it sucks. I think ours is better. So did the Canadian.
----------------------------------
It's very likely he owned the condo he was staying at in Florida and felt very comfortable there.
Nice assumption.
-----------------------------------
Cons are really dishonest with their arguments. Death Panels, long waits, shortages, etc.
Dishonest??
Did I lie about what he said?
You're the one who wants me to put words in his mouth.
Be back later. Gotta go clean more snow.
RayGun said...
It's very likely he owned the condo he was staying at in Florida and felt very comfortable there.
Wrong again. This is what happened:
He said he spoke with and provided his medical information to a leading cardiac surgeon in New Jersey who is also from Newfoundland and Labrador. He advised him to seek treatment at the Mount Sinai Medical Center in Miami.
This is straight from the article. Another bad assumption RG.
See ya.
"He waited the 6 months like the doctors said and it got worse."
RG it is a fact that there are lotteries in Canada for assignment to family doctors. Lotteries!
See this:
"It will be news to all of us on this side of the border, but apparently, Canada has a lottery system to "decide who gets to go see a doctor this month." "That's why people are suing."
http://wiselaw.blogspot.com/2009/07/canadas-medical-care-lottery.html
or you can Google it: "Canadian medical lotteries" lots will pop up. I saw a whole documentary on it. This is why the wait, there are shortages! Dahhh!
I gotta ask this. Do you want to find out the truth, or are you just interested in things that support your already formulated opinions? I mean, I am interested in getting to the truth. If all that I heard about healthcare in other countries was postive and it was "deficit nuetral" I would be all for it, but the truth of the matter is that this is an expensive undertaking and there are really serious problems associated with it.
Yes, healthcare needs to be looked at and there should be some reforms, but to go overboard and jump into a Universal, govt system, without seriously addressing the problems is just plain stupid.
The system that is currently in the UK is a nightmare! Do you realize that the profit margin for the medical insurance companies is only a 3.4% margin? Look it up!
http://seekingalpha.com/article/155858-health-insurance-industry-s-profit-margins-rank-86
Are you saying that the profit margin is too great? You demonize these companies, yet I doubt that you knew where they ranked.
"medical insurance companies is only a 3.4% margin? Look it up!"
Case, sweet cakes, why don't we have the cheapest and best health care in the world? But instead we have the 37th best health care and our costs are more than double than anyone else, and often triple? Seems to me case closed Case.
You and HOOT. You compare a Volkswagon to a Ferarri and say oh look the Volkswagon is so slow compared to the Ferarri, that proves it sucks.
A2, not cutting down Canada's health care, would love to have it.
Do you crazy cons realize, we are about to see a 30 percent hike in insurance costs in the near future (2 years)? Do you read the news?
RayGun said...
Do you crazy cons realize, we are about to see a 30 percent hike in insurance costs in the near future (2 years)? Do you read the news?
I remember when car insurance was the same.
Prices dropped way down when we were allowed to buy across states lines.
RayGun said...
Case, sweet cakes, why don't we have the cheapest and best health care in the world?
At least we don't have to wait for healthcare.
Casey you missed it earlier.
RayGun has been making ASSumptions all day long.
How wrong can a person in one day.
lol
RayGun said...
OOOOOOOOOOoooooooooopppppssss
"I remember when car insurance was the same.
Prices dropped way down when we were allowed to buy across states lines. "
BS, insurance companies can now sell across state lines they just have to be licensed. More con baloney. I'm guessing I have 30 companies I can choose from.
Ok when is the tort reform issue going to come up? The total cost of all yearly medical tort rewards is less than 20 billion. I wonder what the total cost of insurance company cost is?
"Case, sweet cakes, why don't we have the cheapest and best health care in the world? But instead we have the 37th best health care and our costs are more than double than anyone else, and often triple? Seems to me case closed Case."---RG
Do you honestly think that you won't pay for this? Seriously. You honestly believe that it will be "free"? You will pay for it in taxes. You want a VAT tax like in Europe? Do the math. There is no way that this could be done deficit nuetral. You will pay for it one way or another.
And RG. You don't really care about the common masses. You think that we are no better than animals. You want all of the tax breaks that you can get---you are quite proud that you don't pay any taxes, yet you want all of the govt programs!
BS, insurance companies can now sell across state lines they just have to be licensed. More con baloney. I'm guessing I have 30 companies I can choose from.
Yeah.....in NY I can choose from a whopping 3 companies.
"There is no way that this could be done deficit nuetral."
Cut the GD military.
"You think that we are no better than animals."
I am very sorry for killing all the animals that I have killed. They were just as afraid of dying as religous zealots are afraid of dying. The fear I saw in their eyes, before they died, made me realize, we are very similar.
BS, insurance companies can now sell across state lines they just have to be licensed. More con baloney. I'm guessing I have 30 companies I can choose from.
Imagine if you could choose from 1300 companies. Now that's competition.
"Imagine if you could choose from 1300 companies. Now that's competition. "
Yah right, the loopholes they would come up with would be mind boggling all right. Thats the reason they are regulated now.
See you Casey. No point in talking with RG.
He can't handle what the Canadian said in his own words.
I don't blame him because it shows how bad the universal health care system is. Also shows how libs don't like the truth.
RG's got his nose so far up Obama's ass that he can see his tonsils.
lol
I did ask the question and no one answered...Do you want the truth, or do you just want to support the opinion that you already hold? Funny. No one answered and no one went to the sites that I provided. No one ever comments on what is provided. What do you think of the medical lotteries, RG.?
Watched some of the healthcare summit. Obama is an arrogant ass. That is the only conclusion that I can come up with. His body language, his facial expressions, his whole demeanor is arrogant. I believe the many physiatrists that say that he is a narcissist.
How can you guys follow this guy?
His ratings are still dropping...
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